Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

microstrip said:
Can I ask what do you mean by "efficacy is less than 10%"? What acoustical parameters will be reduced by 10%?

Hello Francisco!

I wrote "difference in efficacy is less than 10%" (emphasis added). By "efficacy" Bonnie means the effectiveness of the wall treatment in functioning as a modest bass trap at around 125 Hz.

microstrip said:
You are not following other people advice on matters such as speakers, why being disturbed by their advice on plywood?

I do not understand this comment. I think I do not follow advice on any of these matters. I solicit varying and sometimes conflicting opinions, and then I make a decision myself.

Do you mean that I am taking into account David's dislike for acoustic reasons of conventional plywood on walls?

microstrip said:
Just to please my curiosity what are the layers in the engineered flooring planks you are considering?

The "engineered" wood (a fancy marketing name in the USA for planks which are composed of plywood with a natural hardwood veneer) is generally applied to floors. Sheets of plywood veneer generally have only a very thin layer (sometimes almost paper thin) of actual hardwood attached to the plywood backing. Often the sandwich of thin veneer and plywood backing totals about 3/4".

The material I am considering is a total of 7/8" thick and has a thick actual hardwood veneer of 10mm. So the sandwich is 10mm of natural walnut bound to a backing of plywood, and the whole sandwich is 7/8" thick. Of course this is still a veneer product, and not 3/4" thick natural hardwood, but I have not been able to source 3/4" solid sheets of natural walnut. I could put doors on the walls, but that would be prohibitively expensive!

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

Pb Blimp said:
Not when it comes to low frequencies.

+1

microstrip · Apr 19, 2018

Pb Blimp said:
I am not sure I understand your point. They are all intrinsically related. That which is not reflected or absorbed is emitted. At low frequencies you need high mass that is fixed for reflection and a high mass with kinetic potential for absorption. The absence of either creates emission. If the outer layer does not possess either of these properties (standard drywall construction, paneling, plywood etc.) the low frequency will go right through this layer until it either hits a fixed high mass substance like concrete and reflects; it hits a high mass substance with kinetic potential like spring loaded (floating) quiet rock, bass plates, or Helmholtz traps and absorbs (my room) or it will continue on as emission. Asymmetry in this regard is extremely problematic to flat FR.

My question was simply asking for numbers in hertz - which bandwidth are you exactly addressing when you refer to "low frequencies".

Pb Blimp · Apr 19, 2018

microstrip said:
My question was simply asking for numbers in hertz - which bandwidth are you exactly addressing when you refer to "low frequencies".

This is, of course, a very complex question dependent on room dimensions and the standing waves they create and materials used in construction that IMO needs to be modelled. My point was that symmetry may or may not extend to the entire structure not just the top layer depending on these variables. Like I have said before, I would call Nyal if I needed to generate answers to specific questions.

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

Pb Blimp said:
This is, of course, a very complex question dependent on room dimensions and the standing waves they create and materials used in construction that IMO needs to be modelled. My point was that symmetry may or may not extend to the entire structure not just the top layer depending on these variables. Like I have said before, I would call Nyal if I needed to generate answers to specific questions.

I spoke with Nyal a few months ago to get an alternative view about something, but he did not have time to help me with this project.

microstrip · Apr 19, 2018

Pb Blimp said:
This is, of course, a very complex question dependent on room dimensions and the standing waves they create and materials used in construction that IMO needs to be modelled. My point was that symmetry may or may not extend to the entire structure not just the top layer depending on these variables. Like I have said before, I would call Nyal if I needed to generate answers to specific questions.

If you are not able to put numbers in your too general statements it is not possible to talk. Again, sorry but I am not going to call Nyal ...

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

I figured out a better solution for hardwood on the walls than engineered walnut flooring planks. Lumber yards have planks of solid walnut, 6" to 10" wide, 3/4" or 1" thick and 8' or 9' long. These planks can be "pressure-glued" to form 3' X 8' slabs of solid walnut. (I am told the pressure-glued seam is at least as strong as the wood itself.)

This would cost less per square foot than the high price the wood flooring guy wanted to charge to wallpaper the walls with his flooring planks.

And this reconciles David's anti-plywood view with Bonnie's wall structure solution. (I would have to have Bonnie substitute 3/4" solid walnut for the walnut veneer plywood in her model, and re-run the RT curve.)

Thoughts? Comments?

microstrip · Apr 19, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
(...) And this reconciles David's anti-plywood view with Bonnie's wall structure solution. (I would have to have Bonnie substitute 3/4" solid walnut for the walnut veneer plywood in her model, and re-run the RT curve.)

Thoughts? Comments?

Ron,

Did you tell David that you are considering a rubber based mass loaded vinyl layer behind the solid walnut layer?

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

Bonnie has dropped the NoiseOut2 from the wall formula. She says the vinyl layer lowers the absorption frequency of the modest 1" wood furring bass trap below the frequency range of the problem she is trying to solve.

microstrip · Apr 19, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
Bonnie has dropped the NoiseOut2 from the wall formula. She says the vinyl layer lowers the absorption frequency of the modest 1" wood furring bass trap below the frequency range of the problem she is trying to solve.

I see - can we know what is the depth of this bass trap?

Pb Blimp · Apr 19, 2018

microstrip said:
If you are not able to put numbers in your too general statements it is not possible to talk. Again, sorry but I am not going to call Nyal ...

What????? Dude you asked me the question, not the other way around. You made a false statement, I corrected you, and you ask me a question that is unanswerable without hard data inputs and does not relate to or support your false statement in any way. Then you proceed to tell me you can't talk to me. You are a trip.

Pb Blimp · Apr 19, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
I spoke with Nyal a few months ago to get an alternative view about something, but he did not have time to help me with this project.

Well that's unfortunate but it looks like you are in very good hands with Bonnie.

Ron Resnick · Apr 19, 2018

microstrip said:
I see - can we know what is the depth of this bass trap?

" . . . modest 1" wood furring bass trap . . ."

microstrip · Apr 20, 2018

Pb Blimp said:
What????? Dude you asked me the question, not the other way around. You made a false statement, I corrected you, and you ask me a question that is unanswerable without hard data inputs and does not relate to or support your false statement in any way. Then you proceed to tell me you can't talk to me. You are a trip.

It seems we are misunderstanding each other. You made a statement involving the words "low frequency" in post #1097. I just asked you to specify in numbers its value (the bandwidth you want to refer) to clarify the issue.

microstrip · Apr 20, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
" . . . modest 1" wood furring bass trap . . ."

So you are building a high-bass trap over these structures? https://ethanwiner.com/BTPlans.gif

Ron Resnick · Apr 20, 2018

That is interesting, Francisco. Thank you for that link. It is interesting how the frequency range of the bass trap is set by the number and depth of air gaps and intermediary insulation materials.

What would you like me to focus on here? What point are you making?

Ron Resnick · Apr 20, 2018

This is Matej’s new room:

Tinka asked me hopefully if our listening room is going to look like that. I replied “ah, no.”

Bruce B · Apr 20, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
That is interesting, Francisco. Thank you for that link. It is interesting how the frequency range of the bass trap is set by the number and depth of air gaps and intermediary insulation materials.

That's why I have variable depth bass traps throughout the room, starting from 4.5' deep to 2' deep.

microstrip · Apr 20, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
That is interesting, Francisco. Thank you for that link. It is interesting how the frequency range of the bass trap is set by the number and depth of air gaps and intermediary insulation materials.

What would you like me to focus on here? What point are you making?

No point in special - mostly trying to understand and learn from your project.

NorthStar · Apr 20, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
This is Matej’s new room:

View attachment 40417

Tinka asked me hopefully if our listening room is going to look like that. I replied “ah, no.”

Exotic flowers and green plants?

Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

Site Co-Owner, Administrator

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member

VIP/Donor

Member

Similar threads