Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick · Nov 20, 2017

GMKF said:
http://www.highendaudio.nl/en/apparatuur/wavac-sh-833/

What about this one Ron ? A big chop from sticker price

Thank you for the thought! But the price is still way too high for me. The Wavac 833 in that eight box format likely is dedicated to providing the amp with low-end grunt and the ability to drive and control woofers. In my application I do not need to worry about low-frequency capability, so all that extra componentry is probably largely wasted in my application.

And purely on a theoretical basis I think I am am going to stay away from single tube, high-power SET on the grounds that it may present too much of a topology mismatch with low distortion, Class A, solid-state. REVERSED! by the Order of the Tubes.

GMKF · Nov 20, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
And purely on a theoretical basis I think I am am going to stay away from single tube, high-power SET on the grounds that it may present too much of a topology mismatch with low distortion, Class A, solid-state.

Solid choice !

microstrip · Nov 20, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you for the thought! But the price is still way too high for me. The Wavac 833 in that eight box format likely is dedicated to providing the amp with low-end grunt and the ability to drive and control woofers. In my application I do not need to worry about low-frequency capability, so all that extra componentry is probably largely wasted in my application.

And purely on a theoretical basis I think I am am going to stay away from single tube, high-power SET on the grounds that it may present too much of a topology mismatch with low distortion, Class A, solid-state.

You can rationalize the way you want, but the the eight box is intended to provide the best SE sound - not the best bass. The extra componentry would be ideal to your or my system.

I agree with you however on price.

Ron Resnick · Nov 23, 2017

microstrip said:
You can rationalize the way you want, but the the eight box is intended to provide the best SE sound - not the best bass. The extra componentry would be ideal to your or my system. I agree with you however on price.

I think I dismissed a Wavac 833 too quickly.

The eight box model includes two boxes of AC isolation transformers. I already have food electrical infrastructure covered (I hope).

Folsom · Nov 23, 2017

Hm, I had no idea that was what the boxes were for... to me that makes them less appealing.

GMKF · Nov 23, 2017

Ron have you read Fremers review on the Wavac 833 ? (https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html)

Yes I know it's outrageous in price. But it's my dream tube amp (altough I never heard it) alongside a Lamm or Einstein OTL.

And Wavac builds the same type of amp without the isolation transformer: https://www.wavac-audio.jp/he833mk2_e.shtml

microstrip · Nov 23, 2017

GMKF said:
Ron have you read Fremers review on the Wavac 833 ? (https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html)

Yes I know it's outrageous in price. But it's my dream tube amp (altough I never heard it) alongside a Lamm or Einstein OTL.

And Wavac builds the same type of amp without the isolation transformer: https://www.wavac-audio.jp/he833mk2_e.shtml

Yes, but Fremer was thinking about Ron when he wrote:

"You'll hear more extended amplifiers on top, better-damped ones below, and more powerful, punchy, and dynamic ones all around. But I doubt you'll hear an amplifier that delivers the effervescence, transparency, and solidity of live music—all kinds of live music—as convincingly and effectively as does the Wavac SH-833."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...ck-power-amplifier-page-3#mZ0uWTzECWpBQfr9.99

Ron Resnick · Nov 23, 2017

But that was before Fremer learned the distortion at output figures.

Hence the puzzle about whether Michael liked the sound because of the distortion or in spite of the distortion?

microstrip · Nov 23, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
But that was before Fremer learned the distortion at output figures.

Hence the puzzle about whether Michael liked the sound because of the distortion or in spite of the distortion?

It was something that puzzled me in this review - Atkinson went to Fremer house, carried the amplifiers to his lab, took them back and did not listen to the pair of $350 000 amplifiers. Unbelievable, and a IMHO a very strange attitude, as he often comments on the sound of equipment in reviewers listening rooms.

GMKF · Nov 24, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Hence the puzzle about whether Michael liked the sound because of the distortion or in spite of the distortion?

I think he formed his opinion before the measurements were made. Why would he ask for more time with the amp, if he didn't like it ?

But I think distortion add's to the sound in a way. Fremer bought the DarTZeel MonoBlocks despite their "higher" than normal distortion.

I think Fremer accepts distortion, if the amp sounds good.

And "Note that the SH-833 becomes increasingly nonlinear with increasing power into all loads. Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would conventionally be called "low" distortion. So why did the amplifier sound more linear than these measurements would suggest? The answer lies in the harmonic content of the distortion. At moderate power levels in the midrange, it is almost entirely pure second harmonic (fig.7). At 1%, the level is high enough that it will be just audible—hear for yourself, using the distortion tracks on Stereophile's Test CD 2. However, second-harmonic distortion, being musically consonant and close enough in frequency terms to the fundamental that there will be plenty of masking, is both relatively benign and can often be preferred to an undistorted signal, in that it sounds "fatter" and "warmer." "

Thats what Atkinson wrote. If you like that, why bother ?

Anyway.....

Ron choose what ever your stomach tells you to do, not what some guy or measurements tell you.

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

I just remembered another interesting contender: VTL MB-185 Series III, using eight EL34s, producing 140 watts in triode mode.

I wonder how this VTL would sound compared to the Jadis JA200 Mk. II retrofitted with EL34s?

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

I just remembered another interesting contender: VTL MB-185 Series III, using eight EL34s, producing 140 watts in triode mode.

I wonder how this VTL would sound compared to the Jadis JA200 Mk. II retrofitted with EL34s?

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

updated amplifier list:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)
Zesto Audio Eros 300 (Class A, KT-88, 150w push-pull)
BAT Rex II (6C33C, 160w probably push-pull)
Mastersound PF100 (Class A, 845, 117w parallel SET)
VAC 450iq
Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)
Berning Quadrature-Z
VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)

Mike Lavigne · Nov 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
updated amplifier list:

Jadis JA200 Mk. II (Class A, KT-150, 200w push-pull)
Zesto Audio Eros 300 (Class A, KT-88, 150w push-pull)
BAT Rex II (6C33C, 160w probably push-pull)
Mastersound PF100 (Class A, 845, 117w parallel SET)
VAC 450iq
Wavac HE-833 Mk. II (SET, 150w)

for the HE-833......v2 ($79k) or MkII ($150k)?

Berning Quadrature-Z
VTL MB-185 Series III (Class AB, EL34, 140w in triode mode)

christoph · Nov 25, 2017

Hi Ron

I think you should include the Kronzilla DX100 monos to your shortlist as well.
They are excellent amp that sound incredibly good and deliver 100 SET watts, while having the speakers under control

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

Thank you, and you are quite correct, but I have been focusing on all-tube designs.

Ron Resnick · Nov 25, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
for the HE-833......v2 ($79k) or MkII ($150k)?

Mike, I cannot afford either model, but as long as I am dreaming I like the Mk. II with the separate power supply.

Have you ever auditioned a Wavac?

DaveyF · Nov 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I just remembered another interesting contender: VTL MB-185 Series III, using eight EL34s, producing 140 watts in triode mode.

I wonder how this VTL would sound compared to the Jadis JA200 Mk. II retrofitted with EL34s?

Jadis JA200Mk2 retrofitted with EL34's....why would you???

The KT120's, or better still the KT150's, sound-- to my ears- a lot better!
My new Jadis JA 30Mk2 can be retrofitted with a number of different tubes, but IMO, the KT150's are absolutely the way to go....and I can see no reason to
change these tubes for another tube type. I suspect ( strongly) that the ONLY reason that Jadis makes the amps retrofittable to other tube types is in the unlikely
event that the KT150's become unavailable in the future.

christoph · Nov 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you, and you are quite correct, but I have been focusing on all-tube designs.

Ok, I understand.
But I'm very confident that dismissing the Kronzillas would be your loss.
Even though they are inverse hybrids, they sound like perfect all tube amps.
I'm all tubes as well and the Kronzilla fits my taste perfectly

microstrip · Nov 25, 2017

DaveyF said:
Jadis JA200Mk2 retrofitted with EL34's....why would you??? The KT120's, or better still the KT150's, sound-- to my ears- a lot better!
My new Jadis JA 30Mk2 can be retrofitted with a number of different tubes, but IMO, the KT150's are absolutely the way to go....and I can see no reason to
change these tubes for another tube type. I suspect ( strongly) that the ONLY reason that Jadis makes the amps retrofittable to other tube types is in the unlikely
event that the KT150's become unavailable in the future.

You are using an amplifier full range with a single pair of tubes, the extra power and drive of the KT150 is welcome. However Ron will be using it only in mid-range / treble and with a lot of tubes in parallel - perhaps this is enough to change perspectives.

I have owned amplifiers with EL34 output tubes - when used with Quad Electrostatics this tube can have an absolute exceptional midrange. The conrad johnson's operated with EL34 also sound delicious - after he tried them operated with this tube a good friend of mine could not return to 6550 or KT120's.

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