Auditioning opposite to what we believe in

bonzo75 · Jun 17, 2015

Reading all these analog vs digital, dsp vs non-dsp threads, I think we should have a list of commandments for audiophiles to follow where over the next 6 months to a year people try to audition a few things on the other side of what they argued for, .i.e. try to get exposed to different sounds. I think the drawback of trying something in our own system, or in a similar system, is that any hufe improvement is deemed as well, a huge improvement, but might be miniscule in a radically different system which sounds better. So:

1. All those against DSP should audition well set up DSPed systems - on the east coast there is Marty, and then edorr, Brucemck2, dallasjustice all have DSPed systems, pick your region.

2. Those who think 2-ch is the holygrail should audition a few MCH systems. Join AVsforum if you have to. Try Auro 3d and Atmos

3. Those who think Analog is Da sh*t, find some SOTAdacs (hint: Lampi B7), and some DSPed stuff, and those who think digital is fine, take your dac along to people own Kuzma, Kronos, SME, etc - some usual suspects that come at decent used prices in the market.

4. Those who don't go to live classical concerts, please stop auditioning and go to live classical concerts

5. Those who like boxes, hear some SOTA horns and panels, there seem to be some who have heard only one brand of horn, and concluded it is the characteristic of all horns. Vice versa.

6. Buy a 200 quid measurement kit if you don't have one, and even if you don't believe in one - I have to buy one as well.

Pick some of these themes and chase them down, instead of listening to one to confirm your belief that it doesn't work.

I am sure others can think of more.

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 17, 2015

We carry our expectations and preconceived notions into everything we do. While I think this is a fine, if not terribly practical suggestion in theory, I seriously doubt that it would change anyone's mind. Well, maybe those who are looking for a change.

Tim

bonzo75 · Jun 17, 2015

Phelonious Ponk said:
We carry our expectations and preconceived notions into everything we do. While I think this is a fine, if not terribly practical suggestion in theory, I seriously doubt that it would change anyone's mind. Well, maybe those who are looking for a change.

Tim

This assumes you suspend your own belief in your tastes and give the opposite side a fair chance. The only way is to draw a roadmap for demos and demo those things religiously in the months to follow. Otherwise changes are minor - changing one valve to another, changing pre, so on

TBone · Jun 17, 2015

bonzo75 said:
4. Those who don't go to live classical concerts, please stop auditioning and go to live classical concerts

A slightly different interpretation: 4. Those who go to live classical concerts, please stop auditioning and go to live classical concerts

JackD201 · Jun 17, 2015

I only have one audiophile commandment. Don't touch my analog (hardware and software) unless I say you can.

TBone · Jun 17, 2015

JackD201 said:
I only have one audiophile commandment. Don't touch my analog (hardware and software) unless I say you can.

You obviously don't own a cat.:b

JackD201 · Jun 17, 2015

Now you know why

Johnny Vinyl · Jun 17, 2015

For the price of a concert ticket I can buy anywhere from 3 to 7 or 8 albums..........what do you think I'd spend my money on?

microstrip · Jun 17, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Auditioning opposite to what we believe in

Why? Audio is an hobby for enjoyment, not a sacrifice for expiation of our sins.

bonzo75 · Jun 17, 2015

microstrip said:
Why? Audio is an hobby for enjoyment, not a sacrifice for expiation of our sins.

For audio, precisely. Don't you, as an audiophile, want to find out what works better for you? If you upgraded from a smaller version of Soundlabs to a bigger version, you would never know how a Wilson would sound. You would just think that panel was the holy grail. Now, different speakers are easier to experience, but different things like DSP , MCH, analog, etc tougher

esldude · Jun 17, 2015

I doubt if I am alone in being one for whom you basic premise doesn't fit. Namely that I have what I like, because I like what I have, and I like it because I haven't experience with the other stuff. I have friends with good analog rigs, have owned a good analog rig in the past, know people with both box and even horn speakers though I prefer panels. So it isn't like I haven't heard or don't regularly hear such devices from "the other side". I use DSP because for years I didn't. So what would I learn?

I find any and all of the above can be excellent musically enjoyable approaches. I find good digital to be of better fidelity. In any discussion it gets assumed I find LP's no good and the only reason that could be is I have never heard good LP. Yet I think nothing of the sort. However when it gets down to the last bit of fidelity I find analog can be reproduced digitally and the reverse is not true. Boxes, panels, horns etc all can be good. I even think horns are an untapped market. If those horns get combined with DSP in the room you have a potentially great combination. Worse I would pair these super efficient horns with some good class D amps. I have heard such and it is a natural combination due to the low noise floor of such amps. Unfortunately in general (I am sure there are exceptions) the bulk of the horn loving market is also the kind of audiophile who would dismiss DSP and switching amps. I even find preference for panels not very sensible as they tend to create problems that aren't so amenable to DSP correction in some ways. I still like them though.

I don't think all that much of multi-channel and don't know anyone with a SOTA-like setup. I have heard them in the past, and wasn't wowed. Mostly because at the time quality MCH recordings were scarce. That has improved some with downloadable recordings. It might be time to try that again.

So my opinion is best fidelity currently available is quality digital sources, and recordings, feeding excellent speakers in well treated rooms spruced up with DSP for in room response. I didn't come to those opinions without experiencing plenty of the obverse approaches. If someone has strong opinions and haven't really heard the other stuff, they should follow your suggestions.

bonzo75 · Jun 17, 2015

esldude said:
I doubt if I am alone in being one for whom you basic premise doesn't fit. Namely that I have what I like, because I like what I have, and I like it because I haven't experience with the other stuff. I have friends with good analog rigs, have owned a good analog rig in the past, know people with both box and even horn speakers though I prefer panels. So it isn't like I haven't heard or don't regularly hear such devices from "the other side". I use DSP because for years I didn't. So what would I learn?

I find any and all of the above can be excellent musically enjoyable approaches. I find good digital to be of better fidelity. In any discussion it gets assumed I find LP's no good and the only reason that could be is I have never heard good LP. Yet I think nothing of the sort. However when it gets down to the last bit of fidelity I find analog can be reproduced digitally and the reverse is not true. Boxes, panels, horns etc all can be good. I even think horns are an untapped market. If those horns get combined with DSP in the room you have a potentially great combination. Worse I would pair these super efficient horns with some good class D amps. I have heard such and it is a natural combination due to the low noise floor of such amps. Unfortunately in general (I am sure there are exceptions) the bulk of the horn loving market is also the kind of audiophile who would dismiss DSP and switching amps. I even find preference for panels not very sensible as they tend to create problems that aren't so amenable to DSP correction in some ways. I still like them though.

I don't think all that much of multi-channel and don't know anyone with a SOTA-like setup. I have heard them in the past, and wasn't wowed. Mostly because at the time quality MCH recordings were scarce. That has improved some with downloadable recordings. It might be time to try that again.

So my opinion is best fidelity currently available is quality digital sources, and recordings, feeding excellent speakers in well treated rooms spruced up with DSP for in room response. I didn't come to those opinions without experiencing plenty of the obverse approaches. If someone has strong opinions and haven't really heard the other stuff, they should follow your suggestions.

Agreed on other points, except for MCH. Have you heard Datasat Auro 3d, or Trinnoiv Atmos? Give it a try

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 17, 2015

bonzo75 said:
This assumes you suspend your own belief in your tastes and give the opposite side a fair chance. The only way is to draw a roadmap for demos and demo those things religiously in the months to follow. Otherwise changes are minor - changing one valve to another, changing pre, so on

Sorry, but I think audiophiles rank high among the humans least capable of suspending their tastes and beliefs. They take it so far that many don't believe their tastes are tastes at all. They believe what they like is simply superior.

Tim

amirm · Jun 17, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Reading all these analog vs digital, dsp vs non-dsp threads, I think we should have a list of commandments for audiophiles to follow where over the next 6 months to a year people try to audition a few things on the other side of what they argued for, .i.e. try to get exposed to different sounds. I think the drawback of trying something in our own system, or in a similar system, is that any hufe improvement is deemed as well, a huge improvement, but might be miniscule in a radically different system which sounds better. So:

1. All those against DSP should audition well set up DSPed systems - on the east coast there is Marty, and then edorr, Brucemck2, dallasjustice all have DSPed systems, pick your region.

2. Those who think 2-ch is the holygrail should audition a few MCH systems. Join AVsforum if you have to. Try Auro 3d and Atmos

3. Those who think Analog is Da sh*t, find some SOTAdacs (hint: Lampi B7), and some DSPed stuff, and those who think digital is fine, take your dac along to people own Kuzma, Kronos, SME, etc - some usual suspects that come at decent used prices in the market.

4. Those who don't go to live classical concerts, please stop auditioning and go to live classical concerts

5. Those who like boxes, hear some SOTA horns and panels, there seem to be some who have heard only one brand of horn, and concluded it is the characteristic of all horns. Vice versa.

6. Buy a 200 quid measurement kit if you don't have one, and even if you don't believe in one - I have to buy one as well.

Pick some of these themes and chase them down, instead of listening to one to confirm your belief that it doesn't work.

I am sure others can think of more.

I like your sentiments

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