Horn Porn Tour V: Western Electric, Leipzig, Germany

bonzo75

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Well Saturday morning started with me taking the Lampi to Audiophile Bill's place just outside London, and listening to his Kuzma TT, then me flying to Leipzig, Germany (birthplace of Bach, and I think Mahler too), stayed overnight, today morning heard the Western Electric speaker, and flew back straight to Barbican for Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances. Great weekend.

So, the western electric horns are built by Silbatone, which also displays them at Munich (Silbatone is a non-profitable hobby, I think, for one of the Hyundai owners). The WE drivers are built by GIP (Japanese) and Line Magnetic (Chinese). GIP drivers are twice the price.

The one I heard was the first speaker ever made, and because it was used in a cinema to address a crowd of roughly 800, it crosses over the front axis to opposite corners so that everyone in the front row can hear, and then the sound carries forward like a mono. You actually get some stereo image two feet away, but as you go further back you get a mono. The best thing was, if you move around 180 degrees, the sound is excellent throughout - it just never goes off axis.

For those who heard the WE at Munich this year, this was a very similar presentation. The voice just floated out. It was being driven by Silvercore amps with WE 300b valves. For Schubert's Winterreise, and other opera, Elia Fitzgerald, or Billy Halliday, this is the best sound I can think of by far. Violins and piano and brass are great. Tonality and Timbre is superb.

So I put in Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances, thinking I would throw it off with bass and dynamics. The guy had a woofer behind the curtains using the whole wall as a baffle. It was great. The speaker is crossoverless down to almost 70Hz.

The width is 2.8m, 60cm deep, 220 kgs (400lbs) of steel. Easily a speaker I could live with. Mind you, this is not a hifi speaker like Trios with bass horns that will tick off a hifi checklist. On some music, it might irritate you. Rough costs are just over 25 - 30k EUR with the line magnetic drivers and over 35k with the GIP ones. One can start with line magnetic and upgrade to GIP.

Just hang the speaker on your wall, add a woofer, and you are done.

ps: I am not sure about all the facts stated, you can email the guy in Leipzig kraus@silvercore.de for further clarification. He has traveled to various places to listen to the WE horns.



The guy also had a pair of Altec Horns. He is the manufacturer of Silvercore amps and is a distributor for GIP.
 

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bonzo75

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From there straight to Barbican for Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances, where the guy next to me was dozing off. Seriously. Slept throughout (for Symphonic Dances, one of the loudest and most dynamic opus), and woke up at the applause. Must have been an objectivist.
 

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Barry2013

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Sounds a great weekend Bonzo.
Now at the severe risk of being seen as a pedant Bach was born in Eisenach not Liepzig where he became Cantor of Thomaschule many years later.
 

bonzo75

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Sounds a great weekend Bonzo.
Now at the severe risk of being seen as a pedant Bach was born in Eisenach not Liepzig where he became Cantor of Thomaschule many years later.

Yes, sorry. He worked and died there, not born there. I did mention in the OP that I probably had some of my facts wrong, but that is ok since I am a subjectivist :D
 

bonzo75

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That is some amazing looking horn! I like the baby horns dangling on its side :).

Those are the famous Western Electric Tweeters
 

spiritofmusic

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So, when you listened to them Ked, where they running w/the supertweeter horns and the "hidden" sub bass? Just how does one get a sub to mate, not so much x/overs (I'm sure dsp coulkd be successful), no more the physical size/scale (no JLs for these I don't think).
 

bonzo75

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So, when you listened to them Ked, where they running w/the supertweeter horns and the "hidden" sub bass? Just how does one get a sub to mate, not so much x/overs (I'm sure dsp coulkd be successful), no more the physical size/scale (no JLs for these I don't think).

Yes they were running with the sub bass. His set up was not high end or expensive at all. For bass he will just put a straight crossover on a DIY sub, or JL. I am sure if one had the money he could buy a bass horn, but not required in his set up. Those tweeter horns were running as well.
 

bonzo75

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I believe there is a Far East enthusiast that commercially manufactures WE16A replicas that do not require one to give up a Kidney http://we16ahorn.blogspot.co.uk/

I was just about to post this. The price he quote to one of the UK guys is just 5200 GBP, as reported on the Wam. And he customizes the color. Though I can't see the WE tweeters on it
 

bonzo75

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Would the original have had tweeters or bass augmentation ?
Keith.

There are those two tweeters (baby horns) hanging by the side of my pic which are not present in the Korean one. If this Korean has the same frequency response as the Silbatone one, all it needs is a DIY sub that is cheap anyway.
 

bonzo75

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The original is made of iron, this replica is made of brass - apparently it enhances musicality, he says. I am going to get mine made of Shun Mook Ebony wood :D
 

bonzo75

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Seems this price is just for the horn, not the drivers. Well the Silbatone horn only is around 12k EUR, without the drivers
 

spiritofmusic

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My experience of hearing a woofer based sub on full range horns wasn't w/out issues, and I know others have some reservations re marrying true oversized horns like these w/anything not a basshorn. What was the Leipzig guy using for sub? The thing I loved about the Denman horn we both heard was that it used a WE555 as here, and married it into a 27' long exponential horn, that took the response down to 30Hz, obviating the absolute need for a sub. At the London Science Museum, material incl dub bass was played, and believe you me, no sub was needed. Supertweeter? Maybe, w/the Denman specced to 6kHz (shards measured at 12 kHz). What was fascinating was how a 2.5m square mono pont source was as all encompassing as the most elaborate cinema surround sound I've ever heard. Not Stereo, not SurroundSound, more WrapAroundSound!
That 27' length made the experience beyond religious, truly metaphysical. I got a quote of £65k from the designer if I ever wanted one made up. Now, if only I can win the Lottery, buy a church to convert, and use the 27' Denman/supertweeter as the World's most scintillating mono point source to mimic 5 channel surround and coolest room divider ever!
 
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bonzo75

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My experience of running a woofer based sub on a full range horns wasn't w/out issues, and I know others have some reservations re marrying true oversized horns like these w/anything not a bass horn. What was the Leipzig guy using

A cheap woofer into a wall using the wall as an infinite baffle.

But note this, if you want scale, width, depth, in hifi terms, go for the Trios. This horn, as you would have noticed with the Denman, can have its issues yet sound magical because it is more real. Kind of like you go to a nice concert where you can enjoy despite the shortcomings in acoustics
 
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bonzo75

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bonzo75

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spiritofmusic

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It was a crying shame so few audiophiles made the trip to the London Science Museum to hear the WE555 based 27' long Exponential Denman Horn system. The experience was other-worldly, a presentation that just laughed in the face of all the other horns I've heard, and was the very epitome of engineering w/no compromises.
I admit they might drive me mad l/t, but what they did across the board was on a surreal scale. After 2 hrs of me being totally engrossed, my GF had to literally drag me away, kicking and screaming.
The enormity of the length mean that it acts as it's own subwoofer, and true 3d surround was possible from a single mono point source - so much musical impetus was produced that the very room crackled w/energy. If these horns can get close...
 

bonzo75

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It was a crying shame so few audiophiles made the trip to the London Science Museum to hear the WE555 based 27' long Exponential Denman Horn system. The experience was other-worldly, a presentation that just laughed in the face of all the other horns I've heard, and was the very epitome of engineering w/no compromises.
I admit they might drive me mad l/t, but what they did across the board was on a surreal scale. After 2 hrs of me being totally engrossed, my GF had to literally drag me away, kicking and screaming.
The enormity of the length mean that it acts as it's own subwoofer, and true 3d surround was possible from a single mono point source - so much musical impetus was produced that the very room crackled w/energy. If these horns can get close...

The WE horns, 12A and 13A at Munich last year are much superior, but for billionaires only. These are replicas, but going by reports, these are indeed awesome, more full range than Denman, and once you get into them won't be possible for you to go backwards into any 'modern' hifi.

I provided a link from diyaudio on my other Western Electric thread in the General forum. Between that link and this http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?board=16.0
you will get a lot of info, but ideally make a trip to Seoul to listen to all the western electrics, or to Germany and Italy for these replicas.
 

spiritofmusic

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The Denman designer gave me a quote on the back of an envelope to make up another one, £65k to incl the driver, field coil energiser, and dedicated custom x/over. No sub needed, just the decision of a supertweeter - a problem time aligning it, 'though, since the WE555 sits 26.5' back from the 2.5m squared horn mouth!
I contend you could do w/out this and def not need a sub - even though it only offically measured 30Hz-6kHz, musical info was tracked at 11kHz, and I believe the enormity and uber holistic presentation would not allow you to miss those "missing" frequencies. The brain is v.adaptable.
W/out doubt my Lottery Millions speaker.
 

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