Two Tapes for Your Consideration!
- Thread starter MylesBAstor
- Start date
Thanks Myles. One question though: what is 2½ generation? I thought these went in integer numbers, not fractional 
. Trust the master was second gen. How did the half get accomplished? Is it recorded at faster IPS?
. Trust the master was second gen. How did the half get accomplished? Is it recorded at faster IPS?
Does it mean 1" master to 1" copy = 1/2 generation,
1" master to 1/2" copy - 1 generation,
and 1" master to 1" copy to 1/2" copy = 1 1/2 generation?
Does the speed 30ips vs 15ips make a difference?
1" master to 1/2" copy - 1 generation,
and 1" master to 1" copy to 1/2" copy = 1 1/2 generation?
Does the speed 30ips vs 15ips make a difference?
I have the Tape Project TP-023 Lee Morgan 'Sidewinder' in 1/2" 15ips.
it's very good.
I also have 3 other Series 3 titles in 1/2".
it's very good.
I also have 3 other Series 3 titles in 1/2".
hi Sam,
I don't know about the specific masters and 30ips. as far as I know it's all 15ips. and I think the 1" working masters are always 15ips. that makes sense when you think about making multiple copies over time. I'm sure for the right amount of money Paul and Dan would be glad to do 30ips when the original is 30ips, assuming their license allows it.
I'm a bigger believer in 1/2" than 30ips. 30ips has a different EQ and the reel times are minimal. that said I've heard some killer 30ips.
the whole '1/2 generation loss' concept is only a context in comparison of what the generation loss might be typically for 1/4" to 1/4". so the 1" advantage is 'in theory' halving the normal generation losses. I've personally done a few 1/4" to 1/2" dubs and those (on my pair of A-820's) are really fine. if anything I prefer the 1/2" dub slightly to the original 1/4" about half the time for whatever reason. likely a very slight loss in one respect but added 'weight' and 'authority' from the 1/2" too. the playback at 1/2" is simply sometimes a little better.
if you step up from 15ips to 30ips there would also likely be less loss. not having seen that example I cannot compare the two speeds as far as where that would rank. maybe that is a 1/4 less loss? I'm just speculating there. 30ips masters typically have more detail, air, and more refined highs and imaging......an increase in articulation compared to 15ips. kinda like 33 verses 45rpm but not quite as big a change. I have limited exposure to 30ips so my viewpoint should only be considered one data point. maybe someone with more experience can put a finer point on it.
likely the quality of the dubbing chain, care in set-up, and tape 'gain' enters into this too. 'hotter' tape formulations can sound better than 'less hot' ones but are don't mate with equally all heads and in theory can deteriorate more quickly. I've not seen that 'theoretical' deterioration but maybe it can be measured.
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Thanks Myles. One question though: what is 2½ generation? I thought these went in integer numbers, not fractional
2.5 generations is minimum. Any performance that was originally recorded in 3 or more channels would need to be copied/mixed to a two channel "master". So from beginning to end, there would be 3.5 total tape generations. For the Linda Ronstadt tape, it turned out that the original master was lost, so a safety-copy of the 2-channel mix-down master had to be used. That brought the total generation count up to 4.5. I believe the majority of Tape Project tapes, however, are 2.5 generation.
Hi Mike,
Thanks. Are you using 1.318 heads on your Studers or Greg Orton's heads? All my headstacks are 1.318 Studer heads.
BTW, Dan(?) from ATR was a real gas to talk to in Jonathan's room
Have you gotten your new DartZeel pre, yet?
...and they may sound good, but there's no such thing as 1/2 a generation down from the master. If it goes from one piece of tape of exactly the same size to another, at exactly the same speed, that's a generation. It would make more sense to refer to any knock down in speed and density as more than a generation than they other way around, but that wouldn't be very good marketing.
Tim
+1, just as in digital, you can't "add" sonics by upsampling. Further, you can't lower the noise floor by going from one tape to the other (unless you used NR).
+1 >
I was waiting for someone to say that. There is some validity however to making sure that the trnasfer is as transparent as possible. such trnafer can be perfect in digital but we are discussing anlaog tape .. So...
Is this the case with 45rpm vs 33rpm LPs too? I thought that at 30ips, there is more headroom for both frequency extremes? With a 12" LP, the outside grooves travel at about 21ips on 33rpm vs 28ips on 45rpm. So, at the same frequency, there is lower cutter-head acceleration (and hence stylus acceleration) and this results in better sonics. Why would 30 ips be worse than 15 ips on tape?
No, actually it has to do with tape speed across the heads vs. head gap length. For the science behind this, just Google Jay McKnight and any of his articles Running tape across the head too fast and you start losing the bottom end, though the top end starts opening up. The best compromise I've heard is a tape speed of 22ips. Instead of the head bump at 15ips and the low end loss at 30ips, seems 22ips is the sweet spot!
Hi Myles,
Well, what ever EQ, tape speed, and tape width, TP uses as their 'mother', if you will
So, for example, if a flat (not EQ'd for cutting vinyl or running cassettes, etc.), stereo mix master dub arrived to TP that was -- naturally -- AAA (analog tracked - 2 CH or MCH, analog mixed - 2 CH or MCH, and analog mastered to 2 CH), 1/2" @ 30 in/s...I would desire a flat dub to 1/2" using AES EQ.
I wonder if TP had any 30 in/s program material
Wonder what people would think of the sound if a digital EQ was put in there to flatten the curve as much as possible.
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