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Thread: Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

  1. #11
    Senior Member airbearing's Avatar
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    ah, the Denon 100M is missing and I would know one more...
    Nevertheless that is a very convincing list David!

    www.Audio16.com

  2. #12
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbearing View Post
    ah, the Denon 100M is missing and I would know one more...
    Nevertheless that is a very convincing list David!

    www.Audio16.com
    Unfortunately I don't have mine anymore otherwise it would the only DD that I know that belongs in this group.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  3. #13
    Dear David - out of pure interest, and genuinely, without a view to being a devils advocate, I am very curious as to the following:
    1. Musically, what are you most sensitive too? - apparently I am timing sensitive, some people are treble, some image - can this be directing you towards the decks you love
    2. following from the above - you seem to prefer belts (927 aside) over DD (denon 100 aside too) have you a particular reason or is it just that your preferences have taken you that way?
    3. money where your mouth is - which of them will you take to a desert island (I long ago decided on a hand wind gramaphone - just in case I run out of electricity

  4. #14
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loheswaran View Post
    Dear David - out of pure interest, and genuinely, without a view to being a devils advocate, I am very curious as to the following:
    1. Musically, what are you most sensitive too? - apparently I am timing sensitive, some people are treble, some image - can this be directing you towards the decks you love
    2. following from the above - you seem to prefer belts (927 aside) over DD (denon 100 aside too) have you a particular reason or is it just that your preferences have taken you that way?
    3. money where your mouth is - which of them will you take to a desert island (I long ago decided on a hand wind gramaphone - just in case I run out of electricity
    Hi Loheswaran,

    1- My main value is "Naturalness" and "Realism" and I find that the quality of bass has a lot to do with it. This leads to your 2nd question, in general I find the constant adjustment and intrusion of the servo very intrusive and unnatural, hence why I don't have any DD tables. The servo's intrusion is most apparent in the lower frequencies that I find essential.

    3- It has to be the EMT 927, sonically its on a par with the American Sound but can also plays 78s, which I'm partial too. On a real desert island I'd have to share your gramophone!

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Hi Loheswaran,

    1- My main value is "Naturalness" and "Realism" and I find that the quality of bass has a lot to do with it. This leads to your 2nd question, in general I find the constant adjustment and intrusion of the servo very intrusive and unnatural, hence why I don't have any DD tables. The servo's intrusion is most apparent in the lower frequencies that I find essential.

    3- It has to be the EMT 927, sonically its on a par with the American Sound but can also plays 78s, which I'm partial too. On a real desert island I'd have to share your gramophone!

    david
    Hi David

    I really appreciate your insight and speedy response.

    That's very interesting what you say about the bass being the issue given that many say that is where DD excels. I have a few long-term projects on the go:
    1. EMT 950 - my black taj mahal - need to get the guys at EMT to do a full rebuild (I have the arm, but need to order cartridge)
    2. 2 goldring lencos (in the loft to sell on when the tie is right) - another Lenco that I need to get a few springs for (already rebuilt the motor)
    3. My favourite - Sony TTS 8000A

    I was drawn to the TTS8000 because the magnetic strip works much like a reel to reel, and a certain fine cartridge manufacturer said it combines the best of belts and DD - I will post once I have it all up and running - I am going to do a genuine comparison at some stage using same arm and cart on each deck

    I use my Amazon model one, or my Townshend Elite Rock - love the trough - in fact have a spare trough to use on my TTS project.

    A nice guy on Audiogon who goes by the name Syntax uses Micro Seiki decks - interesting that you have three in your list.

    So far as the Gramaphone - trying to find one that keeps speed constant and can mount a Helius Omega - only problem is I can't get a wind up amp

  6. #16
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    Dave et al, I am very interested in this thread since it pertains some choices I may make re potential final destination tt option.
    I started w/a belt drive Roksan Xerxes/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes in late 90's. V. detailed, but on the terse side, and ultimately fatigueing.
    Moved in the early 00's to a belt drive Michell Orbe (w/Origin Live motor psu upgrade, and eventual Pederson plinth and arboard upgrades)/SME V/Transfiguation Spirit to Orpheus to Zu Denon 103R/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX. Much more musical, but a softening in dynamics, and lacking in jump factor.
    Currently I have an underappreciated analog gem, my high torque direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation (magnetically isolated massy platter and feet, slate plinth, analogue speed control w/no servo speed hunting, no clamp/periphery ring/vaccum hold down)/Trans Fi Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm/Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 w/Red Wine Audio batt psu. Now I have all the detail I want, and an amazing blend of neutrality and warmth.
    I have compared this rig here to the SME 20/V and TW Acustic AC3/Graham, and it trumps both.
    I'm not convinced going back to belt drive/low torque like the AFO is the way fwd re my current sound preference, and I believe the Saskia Redference 11 may be the upgrade to consider. I do very much like the GP Monaco/Triplanar I heard a while ago too.
    Thoughts?...
    Trans Fi Salvation tt & Terminator arm/Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 cart w.Red Wine batt psu/Eera Tentation cdp/Nat Audio Utopia line stage & SE2SE SET monos w.NOS '48 GE tubes/Zu Definitions 4 spkrs w.Duelund caps & Lundahl transformers/Symposium Isis & Rollerblocks isolation/Sablon Reservas ic's, sc's & pc's/Westwick 8kVA balanced pwr, Oyaides dedicated lines w.Furutech US sockets/Entreq Silver Tellus & Olympus Minimus ground boxes, Silver Cleanus passive filter, Apollo ground leads

  7. #17
    Addicted to Best! DaveyF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    Dave et al, I am very interested in this thread since it pertains some choices I may make re potential final destination tt option.
    I started w/a belt drive Roksan Xerxes/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes in late 90's. V. detailed, but on the terse side, and ultimately fatigueing.
    Moved in the early 00's to a belt drive Michell Orbe (w/Origin Live motor psu upgrade, and eventual Pederson plinth and arboard upgrades)/SME V/Transfiguation Spirit to Orpheus to Zu Denon 103R/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX. Much more musical, but a softening in dynamics, and lacking in jump factor.
    Currently I have an underappreciated analog gem, my high torque direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation (magnetically isolated massy platter and feet, slate plinth, analogue speed control w/no servo speed hunting, no clamp/periphery ring/vaccum hold down)/Trans Fi Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm/Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 w/Red Wine Audio batt psu. Now I have all the detail I want, and an amazing blend of neutrality and warmth.
    I have compared this rig here to the SME 20/V and TW Acustic AC3/Graham, and it trumps both.
    I'm not convinced going back to belt drive/low torque like the AFO is the way fwd re my current sound preference, and I believe the Saskia Redference 11 may be the upgrade to consider. I do very much like the GP Monaco/Triplanar I heard a while ago too.
    Thoughts?...
    Marc, the GP Monaco/Triplanar is an excellent set-up. I am not so sure that I agree that the drive system is the only thing to consider when looking at a TT. For instance, the Basis TT's are superb and they all use a belt. I would consider one of their TT's on my short list.

  8. #18
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    Davey, I'm very close to RonR, who has the Basis Work Of Art on order, and he ABS raves about A.J. Conti. For me, I really find the combination of moving from belt to rim drive/going to linear tracking, is something I can't imagine changing. W/my cdp, Eera Tentation, being as close to analogue of any digital product I've heard other than Lampi DACs, and my analog front end having a lot more digital-like neutrality, my sound sources are converging twds a happy medium. But I do know the Monaco, and perhaps esp the Sakia would take my new benchmark a few notches on. In the meantime, I'm upgrading my tt isolation over a period to incorporate a Symposium Acoustics Quantum Signature shelf, finally to go on a Spiers And Robertson air rolling table, to isolate down to 3 Hz.
    Trans Fi Salvation tt & Terminator arm/Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 cart w.Red Wine batt psu/Eera Tentation cdp/Nat Audio Utopia line stage & SE2SE SET monos w.NOS '48 GE tubes/Zu Definitions 4 spkrs w.Duelund caps & Lundahl transformers/Symposium Isis & Rollerblocks isolation/Sablon Reservas ic's, sc's & pc's/Westwick 8kVA balanced pwr, Oyaides dedicated lines w.Furutech US sockets/Entreq Silver Tellus & Olympus Minimus ground boxes, Silver Cleanus passive filter, Apollo ground leads

  9. #19
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loheswaran View Post
    Hi David

    I really appreciate your insight and speedy response.

    That's very interesting what you say about the bass being the issue given that many say that is where DD excels. I have a few long-term projects on the go:
    1. EMT 950 - my black taj mahal - need to get the guys at EMT to do a full rebuild (I have the arm, but need to order cartridge)
    2. 2 goldring lencos (in the loft to sell on when the tie is right) - another Lenco that I need to get a few springs for (already rebuilt the motor)
    3. My favourite - Sony TTS 8000A

    I was drawn to the TTS8000 because the magnetic strip works much like a reel to reel, and a certain fine cartridge manufacturer said it combines the best of belts and DD - I will post once I have it all up and running - I am going to do a genuine comparison at some stage using same arm and cart on each deck

    I use my Amazon model one, or my Townshend Elite Rock - love the trough - in fact have a spare trough to use on my TTS project.

    A nice guy on Audiogon who goes by the name Syntax uses Micro Seiki decks - interesting that you have three in your list.

    So far as the Gramaphone - trying to find one that keeps speed constant and can mount a Helius Omega - only problem is I can't get a wind up amp
    Hi Loheswaran,

    There are many variables when it comes to tts or anything else for that matter, IMO you need to categorize and quantify values accurately to reach the right conclusions. Let's take bass performance as a starting point, i.e what do we mean about better bass. In my case and for the types of music I listen to the overriding value is "Natural", balance is as important as realism here. Some people like their bass tighter, louder and want to get hit in the gut with it all the times so their idea of better bass is very different, its important to understand this. The next is category, the quality of DD bass vs other types is price dependent. Here we have a tiny group of tables considered to be the pinnacle of the art, outside a couple the best competing DD tables cost a fraction of the price of these tables. The DD technology seems to be a limiting factor at this level but if you look at it within a different price category, DD can have the upper hand. So clarification is important, please consider my comments limited to a narrow category and specific personal value.

    I don't know where you live but it may be more cost effective to purchase a working EMT 950 than refurbishing one specially if you have to crate and ship it long distance, they're priced very low today,way below their sonic abilities.

    david
    Last edited by ddk; 10-31-2015 at 10:24 AM.
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  10. #20
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    Dave et al, I am very interested in this thread since it pertains some choices I may make re potential final destination tt option.
    I started w/a belt drive Roksan Xerxes/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes in late 90's. V. detailed, but on the terse side, and ultimately fatigueing.
    Moved in the early 00's to a belt drive Michell Orbe (w/Origin Live motor psu upgrade, and eventual Pederson plinth and arboard upgrades)/SME V/Transfiguation Spirit to Orpheus to Zu Denon 103R/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX. Much more musical, but a softening in dynamics, and lacking in jump factor.
    Currently I have an underappreciated analog gem, my high torque direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation (magnetically isolated massy platter and feet, slate plinth, analogue speed control w/no servo speed hunting, no clamp/periphery ring/vaccum hold down)/Trans Fi Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm/Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 w/Red Wine Audio batt psu. Now I have all the detail I want, and an amazing blend of neutrality and warmth.
    I have compared this rig here to the SME 20/V and TW Acustic AC3/Graham, and it trumps both.
    I'm not convinced going back to belt drive/low torque like the AFO is the way fwd re my current sound preference, and I believe the Saskia Redference 11 may be the upgrade to consider. I do very much like the GP Monaco/Triplanar I heard a while ago too.
    Thoughts?...
    Marc,

    You need to go and listen to these tables with people who understand them and know what they're doing, they can explain their choices and make up your mind if its a must have for you. Yes, belt drive will sound different from an idler and I love both but I will tell you from direct experience that the AF-1 is one of the finest sounding tables ever made. Some of the conversation here might have given a different impression but that wasn't the intention, we were discussing very fine nuances in a very particular system and only in direct comparison to something else, the AF-1 is incredible. Please don't take offense but the past setups you mentioned leave a lot to be desired and shouldn't be used as a standard for belt drives, don't limit yourself based on them.

    Happy hunting!

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

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