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Thread: Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

  1. #41
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    David, looking fwds to your thoughts. This shouldn't become a belt v dd argument, ideally if poss just really comparing and contrasting pros and cons of belt/dd/idler/rim drives. There is a lot of YMMV and synergy in this and all audio, but maybe some common ground can be found.
    Marc,

    Your reply is in a new thread here;

    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-vs-Belt-Drive

    david
    Last edited by ddk; 11-04-2015 at 12:45 PM.
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  2. #42
    This thread is highly amusing insofar as it sadly appears to re-iterate the debates on Audiogon, HiFIWigWam, Pinkfishmedia et al... I am convinced that DDK was trying to put a different slant insofar as encouraging people to positively reflect aspects of certain drive mechanisms. In the red corner Purrite and his crusade with GP Monaco, and in the blue corner...

    Anyway I am not trying to stir trouble save for the fact that there's a real split between facts, figures, and pseudo science going on. Maybe there ought to be new methods of measurements out there for the pseudo scientists??

  3. #43
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    ddk?
    did you ever hear one of the large Melcos?
    guess it would be a contender up against your MS s
    best
    Leif

  4. #44
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    I personally find it a bit disappointing that some of the greatest TT engineering has been relatively ignored here. I am referring to late 1970s through mid 1980s direct drive turntables from Japan. The mighty Exclusive P3, The Yamaha GT-2000, the Kenwood L-07, the Nakamichi TX-1000 etc. The hunting of the old servos was all but eliminated with sophisticated bi-directional servos (Thanks JVC) and high mass platters (Kenwoods and Yamaha's were both over 6Kg...and Yamahas was oversized with more weight on the outside for inertia). Also, and this was mentioned earlier, the motors were all out custom efforts in most cases. This meant that they eliminated cogging in several models by coming up with coreless and slotless and sometimes even brushless designs (like the Kenwood). So, they eliminated cogging and the hunting issues and the result is smooth confident sound with impeccable timing. I own a GT-2000 and I have tested many TTs now with my Allnic Speednic, which is very sensitive to instantaneous speed changes, and I have yet to test a more stable TT than my Yamaha...even when playing a record or under direct load (from a finger on the platter for example). The belt drives we have tested all fared much worse...even my friends bit Transrotor with three motors and magnetically decoupled drive system. I am quite sure all high mass/low torque belt drives will not be as stable with a record actually playing.

    If any of you guys have an Allnic Speednic then try it out with the record playing and watch it carefully. I wish I had video taped it....maybe a project over the holidays.

    Now, that is not to say that all DD TTs from that era are great...but the best ones will go toe to toe with anything made today.

    Now there is one other TT that is worth discussion that seems to have fallen through the cracks and this is the Voyd Reference. The Voyd is the best belt drive TT I have ever heard. It has a HUGE power supply for the 3 large Papst motors that are arranged in a triangle around the Lexan platter. Light platter, high torque with phase locked external rotor motors. It has dynamics and drive that I have never heard from anything other than a top DD or idler drive TT. No other belt driver does it the same way from what I have heard (even other TTs with three motors...usually they still have small power suppplies and large heavy platters). Only the noise of the three motors being under the platter sullies the sound somewhat. Also, the suspension is, how shall we say, archaic and difficult to set up correctly. I had a 3 motor Voyd, but not the reference, and I still have very fond memories of this awesome TT...only a great DD took me away.

    FWIW, I have head a couple of the DD EMTs and they are nowhere near as good as the last of the great Japanese TTs. They had cogging motors and less sophisticated servos.

  5. #45
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christensenleif@msn.com View Post
    ddk?
    did you ever hear one of the large Melcos?
    guess it would be a contender up against your MS s
    best
    Leif
    Hi Leif,
    I never owned a Melco but heard them a few times in a friend's system side by side with with a Micro RX-5000. I think that it was either the 3560 or the 3533 he had and it sounded wonderful, just as good as the RX-5000 with the Melco having a bit more detail and extension in the bass. The bigger Micros, SX-8000, SX-8000mk2 and SZ-1t are sonically superior.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  6. #46
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    hi D
    when I studied in Stockholm between 1978-82 a friend had the second largest tripod Melco with the 35kg bronze platter, silk driven from a huge motor assy
    these were cast by the very same monks that made the temple bells and they sure knew what they were doing getting the airbubbles out to ensure clean sound
    it had an air"bearing" Dennesen arm and the for the time fab Grado signature no
    the combo has a solidity and musicality that was unprecedented at the time, all presented by a pair of my,still favourite electrostatic the Beveridge SW2
    best
    Leif

  7. #47
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christensenleif@msn.com View Post
    hi D
    when I studied in Stockholm between 1978-82 a friend had the second largest tripod Melco with the 35kg bronze platter, silk driven from a huge motor assy
    these were cast by the very same monks that made the temple bells and they sure knew what they were doing getting the airbubbles out to ensure clean sound
    it had an air"bearing" Dennesen arm and the for the time fab Grado signature no
    the combo has a solidity and musicality that was unprecedented at the time, all presented by a pair of my,still favourite electrostatic the Beveridge SW2
    best
    Leif
    Hi Leif,
    That combination is still hard to beat even today must have been some special experience all the way back then!

    35kg was their top platter, they didn't have heavier but they had a choice of heavier bases like their platters. The casting was one thing, the challenge was to deaden the platters so they didn't ring like a bell. Common mistake I see these days is people cleaning up the old oxidized Melco & Micro platters to make them shiny without realizing that they're removing the coating that deadened them so they wouldn't ring.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

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