The 2 philosophies in DAC design, hands off and hands on. Which is better?

muralman1 · Oct 5, 2010

There are two main camps in the digital audio converter manufacturing.

1) The philosophy where audio gremlins are chased with correcting chips, and chips to correct the correcting.

2) The philosophy where the designer simplifies his circuit leaving the signal intact as much as possible.

I believe in the second way. It comes naturally for me as i have been an avid practicer of zen philosophy my whole life. It certainly helped in my set designs, landscaping, and home restorations. I tackled everything with a surrender to the moment. This way, things got done speedily and accurately.

Where the western classical way of doing things is to change nature, the classic zen way is to go with nature. This is a gross simplification, but I just want to frame a discussion that pits the two philosophies with each other.

There are pages and pages of scholarly discussions on distortions here. There are several professionals who have lent their vast knowledge in signal distortion identification and remedies. Some have been given their own forums.

I hold that the eastern way of approaching audio is vastly superior to the western. You can't call my challenge peer review, as I am not an audio engineer. I am a lab tester. Here, in my audio lab are all the tools I need to test OS vs. NOS, all cable configurations, and preamp capabilities.

Here I want to just concentrate on the source components. Soon, I will be auditioning Meridian's 808.2 and the Audio Research reference CD8. There will be witnesses. Perhaps there are other north Californians here that would dare to pit their coveted OS players against mine.

JackD201 · Oct 6, 2010

I've heard very good versions of both and very bad versions of both. I am of the belief that philosophy points the way to your destination but your feet get you there. You are a lucky man in that your feet actually got you to where you were looking. It's rarer than most people think.

I for one feel there's quite a bit more for me to do. What exactly I don't know yet, but for some brief stretches I know I'm very close. These are the moments of no effort.

Phelonious Ponk · Oct 6, 2010

Given that audio reproduction is a completely unnatural construct in spite of it's ultimate goal to reproduce natural events, I'm not at all sure how a NOS design can "go with nature" more than an OS design, but I wish you well in pitting your DAC against the coveted OS DACs of other northern Californians (if they dare) in your zen shoot out. Try not to become too attached to the results.

P

FrantzM · Oct 6, 2010

Hi

I do try to abide to the "less is more philosophy" but digital is a computational process and the better the computation , well, the better the results tend to be. If "better " implies more computations well , that's where one should go. For the record I do not share muralman1 view with regards to OS DACs. I would like to ask also what are the differences between the "Eastern" and "Western" views of Audio reproduction? And what companies or products illustrate those approaches?

Steve Williams · Oct 6, 2010

Phelonious Ponk said:
Given that audio reproduction is a completely unnatural construct in spite of it's ultimate goal to reproduce natural events, I'm not at all sure how a NOS design can "go with nature" more than an OS design, but I wish you well in pitting your DAC against the coveted OS DACs of other northern Californians (if they dare) in your zen shoot out. Try not to become too attached to the results.

P

FrantzM said:
Hi

I do try to abide to the "less is more philosophy" but digital is a computational process and the better the computation , well, the better the results tend to be. If "better " implies more computations well , that's where one should go. For the record I do not share muralman1 view with regards to OS DACs. I would like to ask also what are the differences between the "Eastern" and "Western" views of Audio reproduction? And what companies or products illustrate those approaches?

I must admit that I also agree with Frantz and PP and living in Northern California perhaps an hour from muralman I would be up to that shoot out challenge

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

Steve Williams said:
I must admit that I also agree with Frantz and PP and living in Northern California perhaps an hour from muralman I would be up to that shoot out challenge

Oh now, that would be splendid. Hopefully Frantz and PP will be able to pool with you. We can wine and dine and share the music.

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

FrantzM said:
Hi

I do try to abide to the "less is more philosophy" but digital is a computational process and the better the computation , well, the better the results tend to be. If "better " implies more computations well , that's where one should go. For the record I do not share muralman1 view with regards to OS DACs. I would like to ask also what are the differences between the "Eastern" and "Western" views of Audio reproduction? And what companies or products illustrate those approaches?

Have you ever been to a formal Japanese tea ceremony? You probably know about it. It is a far cry from out western ceremonies. Traditional Japanese houses are a simple fare with paper walls, and polished wood floors. Wood and rocks in their garden are set in simple, but studied beautiful arrangements. I could go on.

Our museum houses will be embellished in gold leaf, extravagant wall paper and intricate wood moldings.

The transport I am using is very eastern. It is just a rectangular aluminum plate not much wider than a CD. All the working parts hang from the plate.

The last transport I was using was a big box that contained a myriad of, "computations." There are eleven diodes, and far more resistors and caps strewn over a wide real estate.

More and more computations just muddy up the signal.

terryj · Oct 6, 2010

as long as any test done is done blind.

we can already see here (surely) that there is a lot of 'pre conceived' ideas being thrown about, ones that would affect perception if the identity were known.

let the chips fall were they will (geddit?

)

RUR · Oct 6, 2010

Steve Williams said:
I must admit that I also agree with Frantz and PP and living in Northern California perhaps an hour from muralman I would be up to that shoot out challenge

Would be interesting if you could persuade Larry to participate with his DAC. The challenge, here, is to select content which best shows the perceived differences between the DACs of interest, and that requires some pre-test listening time. That content is then used in the test and perceived differences confirmed - or not.

microstrip · Oct 6, 2010

muralman1 said:
More and more computations just muddy up the signal.

Muralman1,
Can you imagine how many computations were made by the ADC when digitizing the analog signal you have in your CD? As far as I know, most ADCs used by studios are either Delta Sigma or oversampling types. And mastering also adds lots of computation.

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

JackD201 said:
I've heard very good versions of both and very bad versions of both. I am of the belief that philosophy points the way to your destination but your feet get you there. You are a lucky man in that your feet actually got you to where you were looking. It's rarer than most people think.

I for one feel there's quite a bit more for me to do. What exactly I don't know yet, but for some brief stretches I know I'm very close. These are the moments of no effort.

Thank you Jack, the journey I was taking in audio was unmapped. My friend is making components that are too good. The power supplies, and unique circuitry create amps and a preamp that have no character I have been able to draw out. It is hard to find other components washed behind the ears. There just was no road map how to make great class D sound good. I had to experiment. Now I know, it somehow seems so easy.

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

microstrip said:
Muralman1,
Can you imagine how many computations were made by the ADC when digitizing the analog signal you have in your CD? As far as I know, most ADCs used by studios are either Delta Sigma or oversampling types. And mastering also adds lots of computation.

Some studios do a really great job mastering digital. If they are oversampling the signal before it is digitalized, why do we need players that do the same? Not all CDs are created the same. In fact, there are more bad ones than spectacular ones.

Phelonious Ponk · Oct 6, 2010

Have you ever been to a formal Japanese tea ceremony? You probably know about it. It is a far cry from out western ceremonies. Traditional Japanese houses are a simple fare with paper walls, and polished wood floors. Wood and rocks in their garden are set in simple, but studied beautiful arrangements. I could go on.

Yes, Japanese zen, Japanese art -- lovely, delicate, simplistic without ever approaching simplicity, a great effort vainly seeking the appearance of effortlessness. But that's another subject, another thread, another board. I'm afraid I won't be able to make the shoot-out. I'm in the other corner of the continent from Northern California.

P

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

terryj said:
as long as any test done is done blind.

we can already see here (surely) that there is a lot of 'pre conceived' ideas being thrown about, ones that would affect perception if the identity were known.

let the chips fall were they will (geddit?)

On my system no two source performances are going to be a close call. All changes are vividly pronounced.

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

RUR said:
Would be interesting if you could persuade Larry to participate with his DAC. The challenge, here, is to select content which best shows the perceived differences between the DACs of interest, and that requires some pre-test listening time. That content is then used in the test and perceived differences confirmed - or not.

Change the speaker cables, and wham! you will instantly hear a wild difference. Matching this system is akin to breaking a wild horse. Precious few succeed. I am very eager for the best of OS players, and DACs and transports to make it here. As for content. I find running the same loop over and over tedious and tiring. The differences just won't be close anyway. I hope for the comparisons we use some acoustic music. I think the Reference Recordings CD, "Nojima Plays Liszt," would be ideal.

JackD201 · Oct 6, 2010

I think the Ennio Morricone soundtrack of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly should be used.....that or High Noon's. LOL

Sorry guys I couldn't help myself, shootouts affect me that way

Steve Williams · Oct 6, 2010

The differences just won't be close anyway

That's a pretty bold statement. You do need to get out and hear some other systems. The results might change your mind.

muralman1 · Oct 6, 2010

Steve, the reason I say that is because that has been everyone's experience here. Small changes create strong signatures at the speaker. I have heard lots of systems. I use to have a Pass Labs ultra system. No wires made a difference. CD players ended up listener preference. Double blind would have been necessary then.

terryj · Oct 7, 2010

muralman1 said:
On my system no two source performances are going to be a close call. All changes are vividly pronounced.

well then, the results will still be the same no.

Ahh, the raw supreme confidence is interesting.

Remember, level matched and NO hint whatsoever about which is which, from ANY direction.

Looking forward to it.

muralman1 · Oct 7, 2010

terryj said:
well then, the results will still be the same no.

Ahh, the raw supreme confidence is interesting.

Remember, level matched and NO hint whatsoever about which is which, from ANY direction.

Looking forward to it.

Are you coming?

The 2 philosophies in DAC design, hands off and hands on. Which is better?

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