Are we going in the right direction?

JackD201 · May 26, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Jack a good speaker is a good speaker and will reproduce everything, it doesn't know what it is playing, the idea that a certain loudspeaker will only play certain music is bunk.
Keith.

Aah what a wonderful sweeping generalization. Every speaker has a performance envelope. Each has its strengths and weaknesses in terms of both output and room integration. This all started when I said Horses for Courses. Do indulge me this. What reason would one need to choose a Cessaro over a GRIMM?

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

JackD201 said:
Aah what a wonderful sweeping generalization. Every speaker has a performance envelope. Each has its strengths and weaknesses in terms of both output and room integration. This all started when I said Horses for Courses. Do indulge me this. What reason would one need to choose a Cessaro over a GRIMM?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying either, Jack. What are the elements of this performance envelope? What are some of these strengths and weaknesses and how to they relate to styles of music?

Tim

Mike Lavigne · May 26, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Jack a good speaker is a good speaker and will reproduce everything, it doesn't know what it is playing, the idea that a certain loudspeaker will only play certain music is bunk.
Keith.

not true. but it's not such a simple thing to grasp.

last fall I had some amps brought to my room as much for the seller/distributor to see how they would do as for me to experience them. they were 60 watt monoblock OTL's, wonderful sounding amps, not cheap. my speakers are 96db 6 ohm, and have powered bass units....so an easy load.

so it ought to work just fine.

and it did on simple music. small scale vocals, string quartets, small combo jazz. when you played large scale music they simply could not handle controlling the speaker and maintaining the scale and cohesion on musical peaks. there was a point past which you did not want to go there.

the seller/distributor said these were amps ideal for horns, and other hi efficient speakers that don't aspire to do all types of music effectively.

I re-inserted my dart monos and right away the whole musical universe was ours to travel.

and until you heard what the big darts could do on the large scale music you did not realize just how stressed the over $70k 60 watt OTL's were. the difference was dramatic.

can horns and modest power play all kinds of music? sure. can they do the music 100% justice? depends on your reference.

horses for courses.

ddk · May 26, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
can horns and modest power play all kinds of music? sure.
horses for courses.

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, that's not quite right. There are many horn and horn loaded speakers that demand and need quite a bit of power to come to life. The Ocean Way HR-1 system is an extreme example at the ultra expensive end. To begin with they must be quad amped with mostly ss electronics! Had a chat with the manufacturer at CES and for best results they recommend only high current high wattage solid state amplifiers. Viola electronics was sharing the room and confirmed the same. Even some vintage horns need more power than what their sensitivity and load figures suggests, and what a modestly powered SET no matter how good can supply.

david

JackD201 · May 27, 2015

Phelonious Ponk said:
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying either, Jack. What are the elements of this performance envelope? What are some of these strengths and weaknesses and how to they relate to styles of music?

Tim

I can agree that a good speaker will play any type of music well. What's bunk to me is that any good speaker will play any type of music EQUALLY well. Come on. We know that there are types of music that are more demanding than others.

Johnny Vinyl · May 27, 2015

What about the many HT enthusiasts who say that certain loudspeakers are better suited for music, not home theatre (and I'm not talking of dipole/bipole surrounds) and vice-versa. I want to agree with both Keith (speakers do not know and it does not matter....) and Jack (What's bunk to me is that any good speaker will play any type of music EQUALLY well).

TBone · May 27, 2015

"Better" suited to one type of music or another ... is not a speaker I would covet!

Hard to judge any speakers musical potential without considering its amplification & its environment (room). Many speakers loose their musical grip, shrink dimensional layering & bandwidth during higher SPL, but the same can be said for amps. I find that many speakers, irrespective of cost, become way too peaky when driven hard. Many can't even reproduce a hard hit cymbal properly, never mind a full blown orchestra. Instrumental impact too often gets smeared, sometimes well beyond recognition, even at lower volume, especially percussive. Reproduced piano often reveals issues with perceived timing. Recreating a Mellotron, Hammond or Moog across the entire frequency range is truly difficult, peaks can dominate. Music such as Genesis Foxtrot, can be a difficult test for any system, across the entire musical board (notice I didn't just say speaker).

Phelonious Ponk · May 27, 2015

Ok, for the sake of my education, let's say speaker/system A (and I'm assuming the systems are a good match to the speakers) is great for small ensemble acoustic music and voice, but chokes on large-scale orchestral, loud electric rock, etc. Then there is speaker/system B, which can handle full range, full scale, full dynamics -- Allman Brothers to Wagner.

Are you guys saying System A sounds better than system B playing the string quartet or Cannonball & Coltrane? Or do you just think system B is revealing the weaknesses in system A when playing the more demanding material?

Tim

DaveyF · May 27, 2015

I think it is quite true that there are a LOT of speakers that can and do some types of music FAR better than others. If we take an extreme example, how many speakers can really do credit to RAP and high volume rock, while at the same time recreate a perfect sounding small jazz ensemble or a very intimate single acoustic instrument. I believe you can probably count them on one hand. Usually, the strength of large enclosure speakers with large drivers is to recreate the first example...BUT is left wanting on the second...a speaker with small/er drivers and a small enclosure can usually do the latter example and is wanting on the former. All IME.

JackD201 · May 27, 2015

Phelonious Ponk said:
Ok, for the sake of my education, let's say speaker/system A (and I'm assuming the systems are a good match to the speakers) is great for small ensemble acoustic music and voice, but chokes on large-scale orchestral, loud electric rock, etc. Then there is speaker/system B, which can handle full range, full scale, full dynamics -- Allman Brothers to Wagner.

Are you guys saying System A sounds better than system B playing the string quartet or Cannonball & Coltrane? Or do you just think system B is revealing the weaknesses in system A when playing the more demanding material?

Tim

The speaker is the horse and the room/venue the course. Are we seriously having to discuss this? This is kiddy audio territory.

DaveyF · May 27, 2015

JackD201 said:
The speaker is the horse and the room/venue the course.

+1

Seems to be more obvious than it is for MANY a'philes.

JackD201 · May 27, 2015

Purite Audio said:
You have misunderstood how loudspeakers work Jack, loudspeakers do not know and it does not matter what kind of programme they play.
@ Mike, it sounds as of the OTL amps were just not capable of driving your loudspeakers.
Manufacturers often quote an optimistic efficiency figure, what is important is the impedance curve of the loudspeakers and the amps ability to drive difficult ie low impedance loads.
Keith.

You are hung up on semantics Keith. Yeah, I really think speakers think for themselves. That is sarcasm in case you missed it.

Keith I know how speakers work to imply I do not is crap. If you will not answer my Cessaro vs Grimm question then good luck to you man.

TBone · May 27, 2015

DaveyF said:
I think it is quite true that there are a LOT of speakers that can and do some types of music FAR better than others. If we take an extreme example, how many speakers can really do credit to RAP and high volume rock, while at the same time recreate a perfect sounding small jazz ensemble or a very intimate single acoustic instrument.

Still not certain musical genre is all that important: I can play v.dynamically recorded rock or P.Barber's Nardis ... both test my system equally.

TBone · May 27, 2015

>>This is kiddy audio territory. <<

Many consider high-end stereo toys for silly adults.

es347 · May 27, 2015

Purite Audio said:
You have misunderstood how loudspeakers work Jack, loudspeakers do not know and it does not matter what kind of programme they play.
@ Mike, it sounds as of the OTL amps were just not capable of driving your loudspeakers.
Manufacturers often quote an optimistic efficiency figure, what is important is the impedance curve of the loudspeakers and the amps ability to drive difficult ie low impedance loads.
Keith.

you have misunderstood how loudspeakers work Jack...that's got to be one of the if not the dumbest comments I've seen made on WBF

es347 · May 27, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Dumber than imagining that some loudspeakers are only good at playing certain kinds of music?
Keith.

..no...telling Jack Duavit that he doesn't understand how loudspeakers work. I find that remarkably condescending to say the least...

JackD201 · May 27, 2015

You ignore the context Keith. If you go back to my post it was within the context of cost. I was saying how there really are many products out there for little money BUT you need to choose your compromises carefully. The music played by the prospective owner is a big part of that. What is nonsense is your sweeping generalisations.

Now as one industry participant to another, I would assume that to guide a prospective client you do at least some rudimentary form of needs assessment and not just shove whatever you have in stock in their faces.

It was asked what is killing 2 channel audio. IMO it is snobbery and condescension directed at new entrants that just want to learn. That you display this to your industry peers, well, you're back to your old pre-banning self I see.

rbbert · May 27, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Dumber than imagining that some loudspeakers are only good at playing certain kinds of music?
Keith.

No, dumber than imagining that some loudspeakers aren't good at playing all kinds of music. Some speakers do some things very well or even SOTA well while doing other things not so well or even poorly. No speaker does everything better than every other speaker. I'm sure you don't disagree with those two things (or if you do you live on another planet) so why is it so hard to understand that many (not even some) loudspeakers are at their best with certain kinds of music and not so good with others?

DaveyF · May 27, 2015

TBone said:
Still not certain musical genre is all that important: I can play v.dynamically recorded rock or P.Barber's Nardis ... both test my system equally.

Sure, both are good tests of a system. Except, we are NOT talking about the test, we are talking about the result!

Johnny Vinyl · May 27, 2015

And isn't the result more often than not simply a preference.

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