Are we going in the right direction?

ddk · May 25, 2015

DonH50 said:
Discontinuous, like electron states, Fermi levels, all that natural stuff? Particles vs. waves, anyone? Then there is noise that makes any signal random and discontinuous to some degree at any temperature above absolute zero... At our level of perception it is smooth, true, but that is true for most digitally processed analog as well. I do agree there are things that can be done better, and always more things to learn about what we hear and how we perceive it.

I have CDs that I think sound amazing, and LPs that are terrible, and vice versa. Sometimes it's the media, or the technology, sometimes not. I don't have a strong preference; my current digital-only system is primarily out of convenience and space (no good place for my TT, less patience for dealing with the foibles of getting LPs to sound right to me) rather than because I think one medium sounds superior to the other. I don't really understand the "all or nothing" approach to digital, or to analog. They both have pros and cons. IME/IMO.

But, I've already acknowledged my ears of clay are no match for those here. (I am proud that I resisted the temptation to use "hear" there. ) But, they're the only pair I've got, and they used to be pretty highly-regarded by my fellow 'philes. Now I use them mostly in the orchestra and bands in which I play. I also find myself more tolerant of the gear than in the past, and have often expressed the opinion that (generally) "musicians listen to the music; audiophiles listen to the gear".

In any event I apologize for pulling us astray of the primary discussion. One thing I have wondered is why there are not more horn HT systems given the high dynamic range requirements and generally limited power output of the typical AVR (though dwarfing the output of stereo receivers of only a decade or three ago). A lot of it may be their bad rap for bright, beamy, ear-piercing sound, a rep brought about IMO more by the users than the speakers in most cases. Too much used in bars, poorly-EQ'd rock concerts, and at loud parties; I suspect few people have heard a good horn system. Are horns that much harder to design and build, or are they simply under-marketed?

Sure crap is crap, in any state shape or form no one will argue that. Paint it anyway you like and its not my perception, digital is made of discontinuous bits, 0 & 1. It can be made to sound smooth and may be preferable as a medium for you but fact is what's lost in the conversion stages is gone for good. I merely pointed out what happens in the "Conversion" process to explain why some of us don't want dsp as a substitute for a properly designed analog crossover in an analog speaker. I wouldn't have mentioned it if we were discussing an all digital chain.

I know very little about HT or the HT market, cost and size might have something to do with it as the sq of digitized sound forced through horns.

david

DonH50 · May 25, 2015

The same can be said about a purely analog recording; something (or perhaps "some thing") is lost in the noise floor, distortion is added, etc. As for speaker crossovers, again you are picking the compromise that you feel is best. <Pro/con comparison elided.> Your tone to me is one of innate superiority of your viewpoint and perception, and the implication that my system, hearing, and perception is inherently inferior, the sort of thing that causes me to call these "religious debates".

The HT comment was an attempt to bring us back on topic, not directed at you nor anyone in particular, just my thought (inapplicable if not just plain worthless to you) that HT seems an ideal candidate for a good set of horns.

ddk · May 26, 2015

DonH50 said:
The same can be said about a purely analog recording; something (or perhaps "some thing") is lost in the noise floor, distortion is added, etc. As for speaker crossovers, again you are picking the compromise that you feel is best. <Pro/con comparison elided.> Your tone to me is one of innate superiority of your viewpoint and perception, and the implication that my system, hearing, and perception is inherently inferior, the sort of thing that causes me to call these "religious debates".

The HT comment was an attempt to bring us back on topic, not directed at you nor anyone in particular, just my thought (inapplicable if not just plain worthless to you) that HT seems an ideal candidate for a good set of horns.

Yes, based on the inherent differences of the technologies I believe a properly designed, quality analog crossover is superior to a digital one.

I thought that I was talking "TECH" with an engineer Don, but apparently not... Neither the conversation nor my tone was/is personal, intended as derogatory and demeaning to you, your system, anyone else's nor any particular recording or religion as you put it. Plenty of scientific information on the nature of and difference between digital and analog around and as an engineer you're well aware of it, nothing new or personal about what I said.

I didn't see your HT comment as anything else or meaningless, I simply replied.

david

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

NorthStar said:
Let's ask Dr. Floyd E. Toole what he thinks.

He wouldn't give you an answer until he'd measured them, and I don't think $200k speakers are in his sights. I agree with Johnny and Davey. $200k speakers are vulgar and insulting in the face of modern designs that provide pre, D/A conversion and individual amplification for each driver at a small fraction of this kind of money. Properly designed horns can work just fine, that's not why this is moving in the wrong direction.

Tim

rbbert · May 26, 2015

I just saw a new wristwatch advertised for $225k, I don't see how that's any better (or different) than the speakers in the OP. Luxury goods are luxury goods, and we're all kidding ourselves if we think luxury = SOTA or vice-versa.

Johnny Vinyl · May 26, 2015

DonH50 said:
We have had threads on what's best at various price points, but the focus of WBF seems to be on the upper tier. Seems a good thing for "them", but quite honestly between my limited income and more technically biased viewpoint I rarely feel like posting here anymore. "We just don't care about them here" seems to clearly convey that viewpoint.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you DonH. It seems topics focused on only the most expensive items are the ones getting any traction. I feel more and more excluded from the goings-on here.

JackD201 said:
I don't see us as one big herd being led in any one direction. Rather I see an industry expanding in all directions at once with choices in type AND price for everybody.

As such I don't see what there is to get even mildly upset about. Go the way you like, at the rate you can afford and be happy. All this 1% talk is nothing but divisive.

I agree. Perhaps we should have less of it...

DaveyF · May 26, 2015

Johnny, the forum is titled...What's Best Forum. Therefore, I think one could reasonably expect the 1% bleeding edge stuff to be foremost in the discussion threads. Having said that, i do think that the incessant defense of some of these products as being the ONLY worthy ones is a little too much. I brought to everyone's attention the horn speaker in my OP as an example of what I consider an over-the-top product....primarily in its pricing structure and its aesthetics. I have no clue as to what it sounds like, BUT having said that, I highly doubt it would be to my liking. OTOH, IF I had a chance to hear it, I would be open-minded enough to give it a chance ( at least I like to think so). Nonetheless, even IF it was the second coming in speakers, I wouldn't see myself pulling out the credit card.
BTW, rbbert, I suspect ( strongly suspect) that the wristwatch that you refer to has FAR FAR more parts, FAR FAR more engineering, a much greater parts cost and a much greater degree of manufacturing expertise than the speaker in question...for what that's worth.

Johnny Vinyl · May 26, 2015

DaveyF said:
Johnny, the forum is titled...What's Best Forum. Therefore, I think one could reasonably expect the 1% bleeding edge stuff to be foremost in the discussion threads. Having said that, i do think that the incessant defense of some of these products as being the ONLY worthy ones is a little too much. I brought to everyone's attention the horn speaker in my OP as an example of what I consider an over-the-top product....primarily in its pricing structure and its aesthetics. I have no clue as to what it sounds like, BUT having said that, I highly doubt it would be to my liking. OTOH, IF I had a chance to hear it, I would be open-minded enough to give it a chance ( at least I like to think so). Nonetheless, even IF it was the second coming in speakers, I wouldn't see myself pulling out the credit card.
BTW, rbbert, I suspect ( strongly suspect) that the wristwatch that you refer to has FAR FAR more parts, FAR FAR more engineering, a much greater parts cost and a much greater degree of manufacturing expertise than the speaker in question...for what that's worth.

I don't disagree in principle. I just see things moving more and more towards the extreme, and I don't particularly care for it.

TBone · May 26, 2015

Johnny Vinyl said:
It seems topics focused on only the most expensive items are the ones getting any traction. I feel more and more excluded from the goings-on here.

The best thing about the uber stuff, is they tends to draw in crowds at the shows, while the more sensible rooms remain open. I hardly feel excluded, thankfully, I've never felt the need to chase expensive ghosts on an ongoing basis. Plus I'm a more hands on type audiophile, refining gear provides MUCH more satisfaction.

speaking of which ... working with VDH mono-crystal silver wires is a delicate procedure ...

FrantzM · May 26, 2015

ddk said:
There's nothing to ridicule here Franz, digital tech is Frankenstein science at best and will never be anything else. Sonic qualities of the Fostex woofers are known to people who've heard them but its only a part of the at the end of the day its the execution of the design that counts. Using these drivers and overall specs tell me about the intent of the designer wether he delivered or not remains to be seen. Irrespective of my own views fact is that we don't all value money the same and solely focusing on price of luxury items is an exercise in futility.

If things were only this simple in real life...

david

David

It wasn't my intention to ridicule horns. It was however my intention to ponder about this particular product and its place in term of performance with regard to its lofty pricing. I also am wondering about its driver complement 31.5 in woofer is a very odd choice Fostex or not ... I would like to know very honestly how Fostex woofers compare to more plebeian things like for TC Sounds, Aura or Blueprint, etc products... Car audio enthusiasts may have done more than us to advance the state of the art in subwoofers and woofers in general... I have to say.

I have an Engineering background in Telecom and Information Science. It is hard for me to accept such a statement. Digital works, it may not be perfect (nothing is) but it works and well enough to fool people consistently.
A crossover is the representation of a mathematical function.Be it analog or digital. Analog crossovers use R,L,C and sometimes some active elements. The approximation is at best gross. It works however and one may like it. Digital crossovers approximate the mathematical functions much better and that by several order of magnitude.
I stand by my statement that cheap and abundant processing power allow people to do better in horns, in speaker in general. Better tools results in better products, everything else remaining equal . In term of manufacturing a CNC is no longer a difficult to procure tool. They are widely available.
I never said things were easy but making horns has become easier for many. By the way if you were to read my earlier posting you would see I have no problem with horns. One of my favorite speaker is the stupidly good but obsenely priced Acapella Sphaedron, As for the product in the OP, I do believe that it is the result of the Luxury turn our hobby has taken. In luxury markets, performance is a pretext , a simple excuse ... Not the end game or target... This is increasingly becoming the norm for High End Audio items. The pricing distorts the perception and we no longer take a product on its own merit but rather that of its "price range" this I have lamented or a long time and I don't expect the trend to reverse. Back to taking a product at its own merit, No one here would dare compare this speaker to things as "lowly" as Magico S5, Von Schweikert V55, Wilson Alexia or Giya G1 to name these few fully full range speakers at ¼ the OP speaker price... Yet that is what we should do to see what does $200K bring on the table ... While this may not address the specific original post question, I don’t think we are going in the right direction. I don’t think horns are the problem rather the pricing of these new entrants in our hobby is clear indication that we are not going in the right direction IMHO.

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

Horns can be great, but they are one of the places where the line has been badly blurred between:

High Fidelity...

...and High End:

By the way, I just pulled the horn picture on the bottom from google images. It may be a great speaker. It may not even be particularly expensive. I used it and it's very expensive, somewhat over-the-top look as an example. It may be a bad example, though I'd be very surprised if it is competitive with the JBL M2 above it which, at $20k, comes with 1200 watts of amplification and active crossovers.

Tim

JackD201 · May 26, 2015

Horses for Courses

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

JackD201 said:
Horses for Courses

No doubt, it just seems odd that, increasingly, the dressed-up circus horses are selling for many times the prices of the best race horses.

Tim

bonzo75 · May 26, 2015

Regarding headed in the right direction, High end is a one way street...

KeithR · May 26, 2015

Phelonious Ponk said:
Horns can be great, but they are one of the places where the line has been badly blurred between:

By the way, I just pulled the horn picture on the bottom from google images. It may be a great speaker. It may not even be particularly expensive. I used it and it's very expensive, somewhat over-the-top look as an example. It may be a bad example, though I'd be very surprised if it is competitive with the JBL M2 above it which, at $20k, comes with 1200 watts of amplification and active crossovers.

Tim

Have you heard the M2? Or are you just speculating.

JackD201 · May 26, 2015

Phelonious Ponk said:
No doubt, it just seems odd that, increasingly, the dressed-up circus horses are selling for many times the prices of the best race horses.

Tim

I gotta say. The Gothenburg in the OP is hideous to these eyes regardless of price. I wouldn't buy it unless the voice of the Almighty himself comes out of them. They would look great if my name was Nemo and I lived in a sub called the Nautilus. My objection is to the direction the industry is allegedly headed. The fact that you can get an M2 or anything else for that matter if you wanted one is proof enough that the premise is false.

The fact of the matter is that there are so many good performers for little money and that is what is confusing the market. Inevitably the bigger ad budget wins the wallet war. It only really gets expensive when the system is asked to play everything equally well. The holy grail of audio. Still that doesn't mean everybody should be on that hunt or for that matter that everybody should worship at the altar of fidelity. Even as someone that values fidelity greatly, I'd be a liar if I said I did not derive stupid amounts of pleasure from obviously coloured systems playing music right for them.

ddk · May 26, 2015

FrantzM said:
David

It wasn't my intention to ridicule horns. It was however my intention to ponder about this particular product and its place in term of performance with regard to its lofty pricing. I also am wondering about its driver complement 31.5 in woofer is a very odd choice Fostex or not ... I would like to know very honestly how Fostex woofers compare to more plebeian things like for TC Sounds, Aura or Blueprint, etc products... Car audio enthusiasts may have done more than us to advance the state of the art in subwoofers and woofers in general... I have to say.

I have an Engineering background in Telecom and Information Science. It is hard for me to accept such a statement. Digital works, it may not be perfect (nothing is) but it works and well enough to fool people consistently.
A crossover is the representation of a mathematical function.Be it analog or digital. Analog crossovers use R,L,C and sometimes some active elements. The approximation is at best gross. It works however and one may like it. Digital crossovers approximate the mathematical functions much better and that by several order of magnitude.
I stand by my statement that cheap and abundant processing power allow people to do better in horns, in speaker in general. Better tools results in better products, everything else remaining equal . In term of manufacturing a CNC is no longer a difficult to procure tool. They are widely available.
I never said things were easy but making horns has become easier for many. By the way if you were to read my earlier posting you would see I have no problem with horns. One of my favorite speaker is the stupidly good but obsenely priced Acapella Sphaedron, As for the product in the OP, I do believe that it is the result of the Luxury turn our hobby has taken. In luxury markets, performance is a pretext , a simple excuse ... Not the end game or target... This is increasingly becoming the norm for High End Audio items. The pricing distorts the perception and we no longer take a product on its own merit but rather that of its "price range" this I have lamented or a long time and I don't expect the trend to reverse. Back to taking a product at its own merit, No one here would dare compare this speaker to things as "lowly" as Magico S5, Von Schweikert V55, Wilson Alexia or Giya G1 to name these few fully full range speakers at ¼ the OP speaker price... Yet that is what we should do to see what does $200K bring on the table ... While this may not address the specific original post question, I don’t think we are going in the right direction. I don’t think horns are the problem rather the pricing of these new entrants in our hobby is clear indication that we are not going in the right direction IMHO.

Hi Frantz,

I'm not sensitive to any of this and no toes got squashed in the process

. It was the heresy thing regarding digital crossovers that I replied to, just wanted to explain and not to get anyone's back up.

Digital works for me too, on many levels and improving but there are inherent differences between digital and analog technologies which come through and do affect our auditory and visual senses in their own ways. Can we agree on this? Preference of one over the other is personal and invariably depends on what one has access to. In my system I run an analog chain, which I prefer, along with the digital so I want to keep all processing in the front end and not have another back and forth conversion in the back end, so my preference for analog crossovers and their compromises. YMMV.

Getting back on course, the pricing is really a non issue for me. I learnt long ago that price and value or performance don't have a 1:1 relationship, we all perceive value differently and have our own pet peeves nothing to dwell on. I've made a choice in my electronics and they don't partner well with the models you mention, I certainly don't find them lowly or inferior to the OP's speakers, specially since I never heard the OP speaker, but they're compatible with SETs on paper. Its driver compliment as you noticed is unusual, none of it is particularly exotic but haven't seen them in this configuration before.

I disagree with you on the use of computers and technology paving the way to better horn speakers because I haven't found them. I move in a lot of circles and many of my friends and clients are horn aficionados with very expensive systems. Categorically speaking there isn't a single newly designed horn speaker system I've heard at any price that I'd buy. Without access to vintage ones I'd probably own a Wilson, Magico, Kharma, etc. too. The only exception is JBL Everest, designed by the incredible Greg Timbers.

david

JackD201 · May 26, 2015

Of course not but you do. Want to race a tractor on a kart track Keith? I can tell you what will happen.

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

KeithR said:
Have you heard the M2? Or are you just speculating.

I finally heard them about a month ago, but hearing them wasn't really necessary to conclude that they are great performers. Speculation wasn't required either; knowing who designed them, guided by what testing methods, and with what objectives was a great start. Reading reports of them online from Amir and others clinched my expectations...in fact, now that I think of it, I expected them to be so good that it could have all been expectation bias!

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · May 26, 2015

Purite Audio said:
One could argue that even the JBL is a compromise horn loaded mid and HF coupled to bass reflex for the LF, true front loaded horn bass has to be enormous , and that is obvious difficult to accommodate in most domestic rooms.
Also front loaded bass is quite different in character to what most audiophiles are used to hearing.
Keith.

Probably more of a market-driven decision than a compromise, given that the M2s will often be soffit-mounted. They seem to have done ok in spite of it, though.

Tim

Are we going in the right direction?

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