Are we going in the right direction?
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
The only time I hear that 'cupped hands' thing is when there is a mismatch between the amp and speaker. If you try to drive a horn outside of its bandwidth, you get that cupped hands thing. And that is easy to do if the amplifier used does not work with the crossover design in the speaker. Horns are usually really efficient and so have a lot of back EMF, which can bedevil amps with lots of feedback and low output impedances. That low output impedance can also cause the crossover to not do what it was designed for as well. You can read more at the reason why here:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php
The horns we had in our room were utterly 3D, completely smooth and very detailed. But I have heard horns with problems... Let's just say that horns like all other loudspeakers can be poorly designed, or designed to exacting correctness. Competency plays a monster role in all designs...
The speakers we had in our room do rock, jazz, classical, ethnic folk and choo choo trains all equally well. If its a good speaker its good for anything. The idea that a speaker is really only good for one genre really only applies to junk.
There can be several mechanisms for horn coloration but reflections are what cause the "cupped hands" effect. It's dependent on horn geometry and frequency, but can also be due to the perception of directional sound, which is much different when you are used to wide dispersion speakers used in live rooms. Some people think it sounds like having headphones on. It's hard to beat the immersive dimensionality and dynamics of a horn but it's not as simple to design as most other types of speakers. There are some massive threads on horn honk on diyaudio if anyone is interested... 
Dave C, that would seem to be the case. Most of the horns that I have heard exhibit the 'cupped hands' effect to some greater or lesser extent.
Horns do require some time for your brain to adjust, the highly directional sound eliminates first reflections and you hear far more direct vs reflected sound compared to conventional speakers. This is what makes for the amazing soundstage where even the boundaries of the listening room disappear and the fine micro-detail become audible. Many times this directional sound is mistaken for the horn adding coloration and it takes some time to get used to. Once you are used to the directional sound then any horn honk is easily discerned. Of course, conventional speakers can achieve the soundstaging and detail of horns but it's very dependent on the room, and getting acoustic treatments just right.
I have some unconventional horn applications I've been playing with recently and it's been very interesting... and very promising!
I think most horn speakers sound 'horny'.
I would not call it cupped hands by my way of thinking. More like a shouty quality. As if it shouts too loudly in some parts of the spectrum, but not all parts.
I have thought for some time with experience of DSP on loudspeakers that horns are a natural. The easiest way to control the response of a speaker is knocking down peaks. If you start with an already inefficient speaker it can become problematic. With a highly efficient horn, you have sound level to spare, so knocking down peaks to a flatter and flatter response doesn't put you in as much of a bind. Directionality of a speaker and how much it differs off axis can be trouble using DSP as well. A fairly good horn should also have a chance to control that reasonably well. So it seems a horn would be a good fit for DSP. I find most horn owners most definitely not happy with the idea of DSP. So no go for many.
I would not call it cupped hands by my way of thinking. More like a shouty quality. As if it shouts too loudly in some parts of the spectrum, but not all parts.
I have thought for some time with experience of DSP on loudspeakers that horns are a natural. The easiest way to control the response of a speaker is knocking down peaks. If you start with an already inefficient speaker it can become problematic. With a highly efficient horn, you have sound level to spare, so knocking down peaks to a flatter and flatter response doesn't put you in as much of a bind. Directionality of a speaker and how much it differs off axis can be trouble using DSP as well. A fairly good horn should also have a chance to control that reasonably well. So it seems a horn would be a good fit for DSP. I find most horn owners most definitely not happy with the idea of DSP. So no go for many.
Agreed, but why start off with a problem and then try and fix it? Better to start with no problem at all, IMO.
Because all speakers have problems of one sort or another which are significant. If the primary problems of a horn can be pretty well minimalized, they offer the chance to perhaps with DSP get into a rarified level of performance. Good response, good directionality, and very low distortion while having the trademark large dynamics. It isn't like other types of speakers are so good they don't benefit. That speaker hasn't been made yet to my knowledge.
I agree, most of them, not ALL of them. When it's done correctly, horns can be the least horny loudspeakers out there.
Agreed that all speakers have some problems. However, to my ears, most horns have more problems/issues than non-horn designs. I think the basic design of the horn itself ( the shape/material/geometry of the enclosure...therefore the horn flair) is what I believe contributes the most to the problem.
To fix the issues with DSP will likely lead to a 'digital' hardness that is IMHO NOT that desirable. YMMV.
I agree and am looking into a custom DSP/XO as well as a std passive XO. It is true some don't like the idea of DSP and the amplifier requirement for an active system though. It's a tradeoff, but one where DSP's negative aspects are diminishing, they are very transparent these days. Like most things, either will work great given the proper implementation but DSP does have extra functionality....
"Shouty" is caused by a peak in frequency response which can happen around a horn's tuning frequency so I can see this being an issue, and again a good use for DSP.
Hi Keith,
That was I said, not all of them. Horn and analog are two things that gas me up and keep me in this passion and business.
To get me closest as liveliest as possible, I really need horn and analog for the basic foundation beside the room.
There can be several mechanisms for horn coloration but reflections are what cause the "cupped hands" effect. It's dependent on horn geometry and frequency, but can also be due to the perception of directional sound, which is much different when you are used to wide dispersion speakers used in live rooms. Some people think it sounds like having headphones on. It's hard to beat the immersive dimensionality and dynamics of a horn but it's not as simple to design as most other types of speakers. There are some massive threads on horn honk on diyaudio if anyone is interested...
Actually horns can have wider dispersion than regular drivers, all depending on the design of the mouth of the horn.
Peaks are caused by poor throat design- the TAD being a pretty good example. There is no need for DSP- just a proper shape. If the horn is built properly, the distortion is way lower than a conventional driver.
As you say- the horn's curve defines its distortion. If you can follow the ideal curve there isn't any distortion compared to conventional drivers. The horns we had had the show employed machined solid maple, CNC shaped to the ideal curve, something that was nearly impossible back in the old days. When we swept the room, the only anomaly was a gentle roll-off starting at about 13KHz. The crossovers are 6db slopes, with Mundorf capacitors. The resulting speaker is very smooth, no sense of shoutiness or cupped hands, instead very relaxed and detailed, with plenty of impact and a wide and deep soundstage at any volume. I've heard many speakers over the years in customer's homes, at manufacturers and also at shows; the Classic Audio Loudspeakers are some of the best in the world price no object. 'Best' meaning: more of the things I expect a speaker to do and less of the things it should not do than any other design.
Similar threads
Members online
- MortenB
- the sound of Tao
- sigbergaudio
- Jpowell
- WladimirMXP
- JGlacken
- jadedavid
- nkjtbushwood
- hogen
- Giotrude2
- Bonesy Jonesy
- andromedaaudio
- simorag
- RCanelas
- mtemur
- SPaul
- Foxbat
- BKDad
- Jimkrell42
- Notdead
- luca.pelliccioli
- 3rdRock
- viola
- FahadWBF
- hopkins
- Mfisher702
- jbazz
- Danne75
- Stormcat
- Audio 1
- skinnyfla
- kswanson27
- jmpsmash
- danfl75
- Labpro
- Three quid
- Pichler
- Cellcbern
- Argonaut
- Ken_loves_classical
- StefanT
- Basile: Locrian Audio
- Atmasphere
- audiom3
- dan31
- HeavyD
- Salectric
- J007B
- MarcelNL
- highendpassion
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |