April 2015 Toole video on sound reproduction

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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The circle of confusion was very interesting. I've always wondered why we audiophiles seem to reject "studio" type speakers as being somehow too accurate

Unfortunately accurate does not equate to pleasurable a lot of the time. That is one of the points Toole made. In a perfect world we would have equipment that is standardised like we have for say video or even photography where what one guy sees in his monitor can be done exactly half way around the world after calibration to a shared standard. In my case I try to start with as accurate I can get but then need to dial things back or dumb it down so I can enjoy a wider range of recording quality. I guess some people might go the lengths of tweaking song by song. I would not find that enjoyable in the least.
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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Contacted Dr. Toole regarding the identity of the $1,800 speaker and he was kind enough to answer the riddle. As I had speculated, it was an Infinity Interlude speaker. It did not sell well and was discontinued!!!

Thanks, Amir. So good sound doesn't necessarily sell, eh? Quelle Surprise :)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Unfortunately accurate does not equate to pleasurable a lot of the time. That is one of the points Toole made. In a perfect world we would have equipment that is standardised like we have for say video or even photography where what one guy sees in his monitor can be done exactly half way around the world after calibration to a shared standard. In my case I try to start with as accurate I can get but then need to dial things back or dumb it down so I can enjoy a wider range of recording quality. I guess some people might go the lengths of tweaking song by song. I would not find that enjoyable in the least.

We agree on all of this, Jack. What do you dial back or dumb down with?

Tim
 

amirm

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This is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT point. I think people listen / read Toole and assume speaker directivity and frequency response are the only thing that matters.

Clearly this is not the case, and there are many other things going on with speaker design that impact the end sound quality. If you listen to the Home Theater Geeks webinar on the development of the M2 loudspeaker and you hear them talking about the bass driver design then you'll see there is more at Harman beyond just directivity.

This is indeed a great watch as it both complements and reinforces many of the points Dr. Toole also makes.
 

NorthStar

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Thanks, Amir. So good sound doesn't necessarily sell, eh? Quelle Surprise :)

I bet that with an attractive external design look they would sell much much more, on top of their excellent ("close to perfect danger") sound performance.
I am not in love with their look (light grey drivers, front face). I would personally custom "modify" (appearance) them. ...I would repaint all the drivers "soucoupes". ...All the grey parts with a darker color. ..Then add a "X" shape apparel spike feet underneath. ...To make then look more "high-end".
...Keep everything technical design, and only change the cosmetic appearance.

* If I find a pair in excellent condition for sale in my neck of the woods I'll buy them, and work @ it. ...You betcha.
But there are other speaker's designs in that price range with great looks and similar performance (on and off-axis). ...Some Paradigm models, PSB.
 
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Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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I have a pair of the IL 40's, the IL36C center channel and 4 OWS for surrounds.
He would be talking about the IL 60's with the built in powered subs.
That entire line sounded amazing great bang for the buck.
 
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Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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Read this from the guy that invented DIRAC
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/dirac-room-correction-interview

I have no idea of how my Giya G1's measure etc .. but I have a FULLY treated room and still use DRC.
Initially it was for low bass only , via PEQ , then I started using both Acourate and DIRAC , initially starting correcting low bass only , then full freq..
The difference between no DRC and DRC (at the sweet spot) are huge and massively positive..
Whatever it does , it does it real well.. I had used sigtech , Tact and some othe DRC software in the past , these 2 are different..

Folk that have come over are stunned when switching between no DRC and DRC... The BEST and cheapest solution for any system imo..

At the end of it all the room is the most important component , it mangles the sound , and the only thing that matters is what hits your ears.. so you might as well panel beat it into something that pleases you and draws you into the music.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Read this from the guy that invented DIRAC
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/dirac-room-correction-interview

I have no idea of how my Giya G1's measure etc .. but I have a FULLY treated room and still use DRC.
Initially it was for low bass only , via PEQ , then I started using both Acourate and DIRAC , initially starting correcting low bass only , then full freq..
The difference between no DRC and DRC (at the sweet spot) are huge and massively positive..
Whatever it does , it does it real well.. I had used sigtech , Tact and some othe DRC software in the past , these 2 are different..

Folk that have come over are stunned when switching between no DRC and DRC... The BEST and cheapest solution for any system imo..

At the end of it all the room is the most important component , it mangles the sound , and the only thing that matters is what hits your ears.. so you might as well panel beat it into something that pleases you and draws you into the music.

I like to hear from two-channel stereo audiophiles with $20,000/pair loudspeakers and above (way above) their take and personal experience with Dirac Live.

* We might see more products in the future with integrated Dirac Live; pre/pros, surround sound processors, hi-end AV receivers, integrated inside subwoofer's plate amps, active speakers with DRC (Dirac Live) in them, etc.
 

amirm

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I like to hear from two-channel stereo audiophiles with $20,000/pair loudspeakers and above (way above) their take and personal experience with Dirac Live.
EQ systems work in digital domain so they don't integrate well with analog systems in that regard. As a result, they are completely out of consideration for many audiophiles. It is unfortunate as few systems sound right without some EQ in low frequencies.

We might see more products in the future with integrated Dirac Live; pre/pros, surround sound processors, hi-end AV receivers, integrated inside subwoofer's plate amps, active speakers with DRC (Dirac Live) in them, etc.
Krell put it in their products and the demo I heard sounded really good.
 

TBone

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Nov 15, 2012
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It is unfortunate as few systems sound right without some EQ in low frequencies.

Agreed to a point ... when I moved my system into a new room, controlling the lower frequencies became an issue. Was not an issue in the old digs. Same system, different room, different sound, different problems.

Still, much rather "fix" the room, than add EQ.
 

amirm

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Agreed to a point ... when I moved my system into a new room, controlling the lower frequencies became an issue. Was not an issue in the old digs. Same system, different room, different sound, different problems.

Still, much rather "fix" the room, than add EQ.
That can be an aspiration but the reality will severely get in the way. Home listening spaces are too small relative to the wavelength of sound. What this means is that the transition frequencies are in 200-400 Hz. Anything below those frequencies is going to have peaks and valleys due constructive and destructive summing of the reflected sounds.

You might then say you can fix these things. Well, it is not so easy. If you have the standard 2-channels system without a sub, then you can't play with the placement of the speakers to nullify all the modes. If you place them at 1/3 locations, you defeat a couple of the modes but not all. If you have them elsewhere, then you are not even getting that.

You can resort to acoustic treatment but if you are using the standard absorptive kind, they are least effective against the wall because the velocity of sound is by definition zero. Zero air movement means zero conversion of those reflections to heat. There are more advanced techniques but they require far more expertise to deploy. Even then, you cannot even dream about a flat response.

Our home theater at work was designed from scratch and is full of every type of acoustic product you can imagine including multiple massive "bass traps" and absorbers. You can see some of it here (e.g. the round large bass traps in the corners):



And while not for low frequencies, more of it here:



This is the low frequency (< 80 Hz) response of it:



The faint graphs are the response without EQ. As you see, there is a peak around 60 Hz or so.

Post EQ is in bright white and the line at the bottom, shows all the parametric EQs that was applied to get it there. We have gone from nearly 10 db response variation to about 3-4 dB. That is quite audible.

And it is not just in frequency domain. All of those resonances create time domain ringing or overhang. Play the guitar at the beginning of Chris Jone's No Sanctuary Track. Listen to every pick. Without that EQ, they will extend and be boomy. With the EQ, they are tight and so realistic and pleasing. You can actually hear a proper string instrument with just the sub playing!

Everyone must measure their rooms even if they have no intention of treating it or applying EQ. Only then one will know how bad the response is. And I assure you that your system mostly likely is bad. :) The physics of sound almost mandates it.

I will write a tutorial soon on how to do this but I can't emphasize this point enough: almost every system out there has bad to really bad low frequency response. And those problems cannot at all be dealt with "colorations I like." No one likes such colorations. They have no redeeming value.
 

amirm

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For completeness, here is the right channel:



Notice yet again how wrong the low frequencies are (crossover is applied at 80 Hz so the roll off is intentional). At 100 Hz, we had excess response of nearly 20 db! Post correction the variation is almost in noise level.

Yes, we need to confirm the corrections above low frequencies to make sure they sound good and indeed this system (JBL Synthesis ARCOS) allows filter by filter enable/disable. But focusing just on low frequencies, I can assure you that no system with 20 db peak there will sound good to any audiophiles. Play a sweep and all of a sudden you hear huge increase in loudness in those frequencies. Surely we don't want our music to have that kind of treatment.

Again, all of this is in a relatively large, purpose built room (really room within a room). With massive amount of treatment designed from scratch. The acoustic products themselves cost in the region of $20,000!
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Everyone must measure their rooms even if they have no intention of treating it or applying EQ. Only then one will know how bad the response is. And I assure you that your system mostly likely is bad. :) The physics of sound almost mandates it.

I will write a tutorial soon on how to do this but I can't emphasize this point enough: almost every system out there has bad to really bad low frequency response. And those problems cannot at all be dealt with "colorations I like." No one likes such colorations. They have no redeeming value.

I'm not sure that's any guarantee that someone won't like them, but I digress. I look forward to your tutorial

Tim
 

amirm

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I'm not sure that's any guarantee that someone won't like them, but I digress. I look forward to your tutorial

Tim
OK, I will soften that :) by saying that they have no value in a performant system. If you have a system with low bass response, then those artificial boosts can be considered a plus. A better solution though is to correct the response and then boost the overall level.
 

TBone

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>>And I assure you that your system mostly likely is bad.<<

Well, perhaps a matter of perspective ... it's not like I was born yesterday and can't correlate tonal differences between my stereo and a real musical event or instrument. But at the same time, I understand what you are referencing from an analytical point of view. I have DSP EQ (24/96) with my sony professional recorder, it provides independent channel frequency range control (I can also add levels of limiting & compression etc (not). I've done so to help isolate room based problems, it a tool, not part of the final solution.
 

Nyal Mellor

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Jul 14, 2010
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The thing is Amir that very few people have any concept of what truly accurate and neutral bass sounds like.

The sub 100Hz range is so critically important for music reproduction and where most people's rooms/systems are just horrible, with massive peaks and dips.

It is the frequency range that is most easily addressed by non-acoustic treatment means - room dimensions, room construction, multiple subwoofers and equalization.
 

TBone

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>>The thing is Amir that very few people have any concept of what truly accurate and neutral bass sounds like.<<

Well, again, matter of perspective ... many a musician friend I know would beg to differ. Audiophiles tend to be music lovers, music lovers frequent live musical events, some even play instruments and some also understand "neutral" bass is but another moving target, even within a live environment. As an example, listen to a live recording where band plays on a raised wooden floor. Much added bass resonance ...
 

amirm

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The thing is Amir that very few people have any concept of what truly accurate and neutral bass sounds like.

The sub 100Hz range is so critically important for music reproduction and where most people's rooms/systems are just horrible, with massive peaks and dips.

It is the frequency range that is most easily addressed by non-acoustic treatment means - room dimensions, room construction, multiple subwoofers and equalization.
Indeed. I remember the first one I pulled down a peak 5 dB. My jaw fell to the floor.

What is remarkable is that only part of the effect is in bass. A lot of it extends to higher frequencies! The ringing, continued playing of the loud bass clouds and muddles the higher frequencies. Voices, ambiance, etc. all become clearer without doing a thing to do them!

Here is the other thing electronic correction can do: match levels of channels accurately and include delays to make the arrival from both speakers the same. These two alone, with no EQ, can make a remarkable difference in imaging and overall perception of sound.
 

rbbert

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And who knows what bass sound the producer and engineer of a particular recording is striving for.
 

amirm

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>>The thing is Amir that very few people have any concept of what truly accurate and neutral bass sounds like.<<

Well, again, matter of perspective ... many a musician friend I know would beg to differ. Audiophiles tend to be music lovers, music lovers frequent live musical events, some even play instruments and some also understand "neutral" bass is but another moving target, even within a live environment. As an example, listen to a live recording where band plays on a raised wooden floor. Much added bass resonance ...
Then you must be a lot smarter than me because 30+ years of being an audiophile did not remotely prepare me for the difference I heard once I correct bass peaks as i noted in my last post. :) Until such time that you experience an AB of this, you simply don't have a feel for what this means. It is not something that can be put to words.

Even if you don't want to leave an EQ in your system, nothing will teach you more about sound reproduction than trying one, measuring the room, and making corrections. Only then does one gain the real experience.
 

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