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Thread: April 2015 Toole video on sound reproduction

  1. #21
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! Hi-FiGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    We had a good discussion thread when it came out:
    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...pinions-please

    We permanently upgraded our theater at work with the M2s. They are the most dynamic yet delicate sounding speakers I have heard. They have the toughness and dynamics/power of JBL professional speakers and the nuanced sound of the Revel. Their looks however is that of JBL so it makes a negative impression on audiophiles. We have them behind our video screen to solve that .
    I was there the day you got those in. You only had two sitting in the front of the theater and the reps were there. I managed to get about 30 minutes by myself with them. They were not calibrated at all. but I still enjoyed my time.

    Have to get in there this summer, and watch a concert flick.

    A fantastic music/video demo DVD is Pat Methany The Way Up Live, check it out.
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  2. #22
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    I'm not aware of any DSP software which claims to correct off axis. Can you be a little more specific about which software you are talking about and how it doesn't do what it claims to do?

    His comments are rather confusing since his books advocate using DSP to deal with low frequency minimum phase room bass issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by das View Post
    Actually, I'm pretty sure Toole's knowledge of DSP is very up-to-date -- and his history of it is excellent, too. That said, while I haven't spoken to him directly about it (he mentioned this exact thing a week or so ago to me), I'm pretty sure what he's talking about is exactly what others have pointed out -- that it can fix the end response, but it can't fix the radiating pattern of the speaker. So using DSP in that way -- which is what happens often with these correction devices -- puts a patch in that doesn't fix what's happening up front.

    Doug Schneider
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    MUSIC IS GOOD

  3. #23
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] amirm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    I'm not aware of any DSP software which claims to correct off axis.
    But that is precisely what they attempt to do. They measure the sum total response at the microphone and apply correction. They have no data on how the speaker measures by itself without the room. The exception is Harman ARCOS where it comes with a library of speaker measurements for Harman products. All others will attempt to correct speaker+room response which by definition includes off-axis.

    His comments are rather confusing since his books advocate using DSP to deal with low frequency minimum phase room bass issues.
    This is indeed one of the areas one can get confused about. He indeed fully advocates DSP use for low frequencies where off-axis response is not an issue. It is above transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz where these comments apply.
    Amir
    Madrona Digital
    Founder, Audio Science Review Forum
    Contributing Editor, Widescreen Review Magazine

  4. #24
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    All of the DSP software I have used make good use of windowing. The time window will determine how much so called off axis will be dealt with. For most DSP software the windowing is the biggest difference in the final result. I just think its a little trite to lump all DSP software into this category. That is, not all DSP attempts to correct off axis in this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    But that is precisely what they attempt to do. They measure the sum total response at the microphone and apply correction. They have no data on how the speaker measures by itself without the room. The exception is Harman ARCOS where it comes with a library of speaker measurements for Harman products. All others will attempt to correct speaker+room response which by definition includes off-axis.


    This is indeed one of the areas one can get confused about. He indeed fully advocates DSP use for low frequencies where off-axis response is not an issue. It is above transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz where these comments apply.
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    The time window will determine how much so called off axis will be dealt with.
    As far as I know, that's impossible -- the best ones are taking multiple measurements, but it's of the combined responses when it grabs them. They can't deal with on- and off-axis responses separately -- the things combine into one.

    I read Amirm's comments on the other parts and as far as I'm aware, he's fully correct in what he's saying.

    Doug Schneider
    www.soundstage.com

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    But that is precisely what they attempt to do. They measure the sum total response at the microphone and apply correction. They have no data on how the speaker measures by itself without the room. The exception is Harman ARCOS where it comes with a library of speaker measurements for Harman products. All others will attempt to correct speaker+room response which by definition includes off-axis.


    This is indeed one of the areas one can get confused about. He indeed fully advocates DSP use for low frequencies where off-axis response is not an issue. It is above transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz where these comments apply.
    And Harman includes DSP for bass response in their better active monitors.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  7. #27
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Off axis gets to the mic later than on axis. Of course, there's no perfect solution. But in the case of speakers/room, perfection is not required; only an improvement. This isn't difficult to achieve in any room. I've used both multi point measurement and single point. The one I am using now is single point. However, even the multi point ones use windowing and averaging to remove enough late arrival sound as the frequency goes higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by das View Post
    As far as I know, that's impossible -- the best ones are taking multiple measurements, but it's of the combined responses when it grabs them. They can't deal with on- and off-axis responses separately -- the things combine into one.

    I read Amirm's comments on the other parts and as far as I'm aware, he's fully correct in what he's saying.

    Doug Schneider
    www.soundstage.com
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  8. #28
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Amir,
    Is Harman planning a consumer version of the M2?
    Michael.
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  9. #29
    Member Addicted to Best! NorthStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esldude View Post
    Could be a Revel F12. Not sure of the MSRP, but it is close to that. A model that has been out a few years.
    It is not the Revel Concerta F12. ...Different specs and different measurements and different price ($1,500/pair MSRP).

    Quote Originally Posted by TBone View Post
    Dr.Floyd's has long been known as a speaker guru within Canada. And I'm pretty certain I know the $1.8k speaker he refers. While he was working at Canada's National Research Council, he helped design a very *accurate* monitor speaker for CBC studios. The company helping to develop & manufacture this speaker was Audio Products International (well prior to being purchased by Klipsch) who's main brand were Energy & Mirage. The R&D cost supposedly went into the millions, as the NCR facilities were not cheap.

    The price ($1,800) and the freq. curve are telling clues, this the exact cost of this speaker when introduced, with identical specs.

    It is not the Energy 22 Reference Connoisseur and/or Energy Reference 22 loudspeaker; different price (on the first), different measurements.
    It's a 1987-88 circa speaker, and was one of the very best @ that price and above, much more above. ...Very good guess, and I am not 100% certain that it is not. But I looked @ the measurements, same type of measurements showed in that book by doctor Floyd E. Toole, and they differ (not the exact same).

    If indeed it is this speaker, and I'm pretty certain it is, it would cost considerably more today to manufacturer. It used expensive proprietary drivers, a well designed xover, and a solid well designed (in & out) cabinet. It also invited specific mods, which raised it's performance considerably. IIRC, UHF Magazine still use a pair in there HT based reference system.
    The Energy Reference 22 Connoisseur was $2,600/pair back in 1988. The less expensive Energy Reference 22 was indeed in that neighborhood of $1,800/pair.
    But again, the measurements are not the exact same. ...But who knows for certain if doctor Toole was not referring to that second one....

    ♦ I also looked @ several other loudspeakers; all @ $1,800/pair and with same measurements (full range). ...From way back then to today, and all the JBL and Revel and Harman Kardon loudspeakers, plus all the big Canadian names; Energy, Mirage, Image, PSB, PMC, Paradigm, Newform Research, DCM Time Frame, Axiom (Axiom M2 by the way, but a smaller 2-way monitor speaker @ $462/pair Canadian), also the Aperion Audio Verus Grand ($1,800/pair), the Atlantic Technology AT-2 ($1,800/pair), the NHT Classic Four ($1,800/pair), the Revel Performa F206 ($1,800 each), some Snell Acoustics loudspeakers,
    and the PSB Stratus Gold. ...That last one; that could be it. ...I'll look more into it, before Amir can find out.

    * Energy Veritas v1.8 ? ...No, but great speaker.
    ** Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v2 ? ...No, but great speaker too.

    By the way, I searched for over more than two hours (yesterday). ...And more with today (this morning).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce B View Post
    Probably a pair of Genelec's
    The Genelec pro studio active monitors (some models) have the best speaker measurements ever, along with some Magico loudspeaker models.
    And a certain Genelec active monitor model is in that range of approximately $1,800/pair. Genelec has some "reference" measurements that all other speaker's manufacturers aspire to.

    Some active ATC loudspeakers are also very impressive in their performance/measurement ratio.

    <<<>>> Active loudspeakers are the future today; I agree with doctor Toole. ...With integrated DSP room correction and equalization. ...In my own opinion.
    ...Like some Meridian loudspeakers. ...McLaren loudspeakers?

    ♣ Genelec active pro monitors are the best. ...IMO

    ___________

    Cool thread, cool video provided by John our OP. ...Rewarding back to my sources, in time when I was younger and auditioning all the best great Canadian loudspeakers.
    I had few of them in different places I was renting back in the 80s and early 90s. ...Mirage M1 among them. ...They never made the M2. ...But they did make the M3.
    All the Very Best, - Bob --------- "And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison --------- AudiophileAudition

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    But that is precisely what they attempt to do. They measure the sum total response at the microphone and apply correction. They have no data on how the speaker measures by itself without the room. The exception is Harman ARCOS where it comes with a library of speaker measurements for Harman products. All others will attempt to correct speaker+room response which by definition includes off-axis.
    So this is the bit I don't understand.
    We listen to the sum total of room plus speaker so isn't that what we should correct?

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