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Thread: April 2015 Toole video on sound reproduction

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-FiGuy View Post
    What ever the M2 is I cant find it on the Harman site.

    Great video.

    here it is

    http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...2#.VWK4F7uh3SU

    Nope that is not it 20k for those.
    We had a good discussion thread when it came out:
    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...pinions-please

    We permanently upgraded our theater at work with the M2s. They are the most dynamic yet delicate sounding speakers I have heard. They have the toughness and dynamics/power of JBL professional speakers and the nuanced sound of the Revel. Their looks however is that of JBL so it makes a negative impression on audiophiles. We have them behind our video screen to solve that .

  2. #12
    Dr.Floyd's has long been known as a speaker guru within Canada. And I'm pretty certain I know the $1.8k speaker he refers. While he was working at Canada's National Research Council, he helped design a very *accurate* monitor speaker for CBC studios. The company helping to develop & manufacture this speaker was Audio Products International (well prior to being purchased by Klipsch) who's main brand were Energy & Mirage. The R&D cost supposedly went into the millions, as the NCR facilities were not cheap.

    The price ($1,800) and the freq. curve are telling clues, this the exact cost of this speaker when introduced, with identical specs.



    If indeed it is this speaker, and I'm pretty certain it is, it would cost considerably more today to manufacturer. It used expensive proprietary drivers, a well designed xover, and a solid well designed (in & out) cabinet. It also invited specific mods, which raised it's performance considerably. IIRC, UHF Magazine still use a pair in there HT based reference system.

  3. #13
    Love this guy, but he's always too polite to give the names of the expensive, yet poorly-performing speakers and too modest to just go ahead and give us the model numbers of the giant-killers that have been designed through his methodology. Does anyone know if HK provides a list of which products have been spin-o-rama and blind listening tested? I'm particularly interested in active studio monitors and would hope they didn't skip the spin-o-rama, assuming that the engineer's position at the desk is the only listening position...

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whatmore View Post
    I just watched the video and to be honest, didn't quite understand why he said you couldn't just correct the room+speaker response at the listening position.
    If it is the reference I am thinking about, the issue was that of a speaker that has different on-axis (direct) and off-axis response. The measurement mic "sees" the combination of the two. If you attempt to correct, i.e. EQ, that response, you would equally impacting both direct and indirect sounds since it is upstream of the speaker. In doing so you damage the usually best response of the speaker which is the flattest and smoothest.

    You might say well, what we hear the sum so who cares if we screwed up the direct sound. The problem with that is that what we "hear" is not what a single microphone picks up. There are a lot of variations that a microphone shows that we don't hear due to resolution of the ear, and the differing sound with respect to what each ear hears. See this article I wrote a while back for the drill down: http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...flections.html

    If a speaker does have similar on and off-axis response, then you can indeed EQ it.

    I should note however that empirical data somehow disputes this. In the test of automated EQ system, the directivity issues of the B&W 802N speaker were improved. Ultimately the real arbiter is the ear. Having an EQ that lets one turn this type of correction on and off is critical in determining if one should attempt to EQ that portion or not.

    It its because you'll only get a good sound in a small sweet spot and possibly mess it up elsewhere? Or have I missed the point?
    That is an issue below a few hundred hertz where the room dominates and by definition then, moving even a few inches can substantially change the frequency response. One can correct for that with room design, treatment, multiple subwoofers and optimization (see http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...Acoustics.html). But if not done, then yes, you do have that problem.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    Love this guy, but he's always too polite to give the names of the expensive, yet poorly-performing speakers and too modest to just go ahead and give us the model numbers of the giant-killers that have been designed through his methodology. Does anyone know if HK provides a list of which products have been spin-o-rama and blind listening tested? I'm particularly interested in active studio monitors and would hope they didn't skip the spin-o-rama, assuming that the engineer's position at the desk is the only listening position...

    Tim
    It is their (Harman) corporate policy to not disclose the details. As you say, this is not in the best interest of consumers. But somehow it is thought that if a company discloses the specifics of competing products that did not do well, that must be definition be a corrupt study to be dismissed. As you may know, we have that data in forums and despite it being such an informal disclosure, I routinely deal with that accusation of corruption in discussing their research.

    On spin data, even in the case of Harman, that data is not public. I am fortunate enough to be able to get spin data for anything from cheap in-wall speakers to the high-end, but for some reason they don't publish them. The JBL M2 is one of the few that comes with such data.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    It is their (Harman) corporate policy to not disclose the details. As you say, this is not in the best interest of consumers. But somehow it is thought that if a company discloses the specifics of competing products that did not do well, that must be definition be a corrupt study to be dismissed. As you may know, we have that data in forums and despite it being such an informal disclosure, I routinely deal with that accusation of corruption in discussing their research.

    On spin data, even in the case of Harman, that data is not public. I am fortunate enough to be able to get spin data for anything from cheap in-wall speakers to the high-end, but for some reason they don't publish them. The JBL M2 is one of the few that comes with such data.
    Do you know if the LSR series active monitors are spin tested for off-axis response?

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    Do you know if the LSR series active monitors are spin tested for off-axis response?

    Tim
    In the specifics, no as I don't deal with JBL Pro equipment (only the crossover into luxury domain of JBL Synthesis). When I was at Harman, JBL Group had its own facilities for measuring them due to massive size of their larger speakers so if it is a recent design, then for sure it would have such data.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purite Audio View Post
    Ah yes, it says that they used the waveguide from M2 so that tells me for sure it has been designed using spin data methodology.

    I infer from the film that all Harmon products ar measured on all axis ,and that they have published a new measurement standard.
    This analysis dates back literally decades. Even prior to Harman when Dr. Toole was at NRC. Many speaker designers are aware of them yet, they continue to bias towards how the speaker looks and "voicing" them for what they think will sell, rather than good design. The upshot is that these speakers tend to require a lot of fiddling to sound good to temper their poor off-axis response.

    I like the anecdote that when he first joined Harmann they blind tested their own engineers ,who were confident they wouldn't be influenced by sighted comparisons !
    They were of course!
    Keith.
    Some of those people were literally let go or quit over this outcome.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    I think his knowledge of how DSP is used may not be up to date.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure Toole's knowledge of DSP is very up-to-date -- and his history of it is excellent, too. That said, while I haven't spoken to him directly about it (he mentioned this exact thing a week or so ago to me), I'm pretty sure what he's talking about is exactly what others have pointed out -- that it can fix the end response, but it can't fix the radiating pattern of the speaker. So using DSP in that way -- which is what happens often with these correction devices -- puts a patch in that doesn't fix what's happening up front.

    Doug Schneider
    www.SoundStage.com

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