Sadurni Acoustics horns - any thoughts?

Saturntube · May 28, 2015

We believe our bass solution to have an excellent integration with the horns. most of our development was done in the bass, we tried almost all possible bass topologies to the point we got called the Myth Busters! Designed, redesigned, built, measured, listened, stashed away. Most bass solutions just didn't have the dynamics to match up to the horns, they would sound pale and disconnected, others would sound loud enough but would become ever present: Bass was coming out of them that no instrument was playing. Most just managed to mud up the sound, we also realized, a lot of people are used to this sound and would actually long for it when it was gone! Other solutions did great at high volume but would fall apart when the volume was lowered, neighbors didn't like these ones! Others were fast enough but didn't manage to match the punch in horns.
It is really hard to have a driver that can go up to 120 hz with tone, speed and dynamics, and that can still go down to 25 hz with authority. So either we used a huge alu cone subwoofer that was terribly slow at 80 hz already, or use fast punchy woofers that would go down only to 45 hz. On one test pair that is still sounding good, we went for both of these together, it is a huge monster with 3 amplifiers that require very careful setup to avoid cancellations form one set of woofers to the next.
With our bass solution we addressed all of these issues, we think it sounds good.

spiritofmusic · May 28, 2015

Jorge, it sounds like you've really paid a lot of attention to the (sub) bass, and the upper bass/lower mid interaction, imho the two inherent weaknesses w/most horns out there, other than the cost no object examples. I had been considering the AG Duo, and thinking about reappraising the Tune Audio Anima, but these both use a single horn to cover mids/lwr mids-uppr bass, obv a compromise, and the 2.5x costlier Cessaro Liszt which chooses to use a 13" dynamic woofer to cover what your largest horn covers (no thanks, not at these exalted prices).
So my only other realistic alternative is the AG Trio w/single pair Basshorns G2. But I can't realistically afford £70k, hence for me my choice is practically going to be your Sadurnis, or stay Zu.

audio-land · May 28, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Jorge, it sounds like you've really paid a lot of attention to the (sub) bass, and the upper bass/lower mid interaction, imho the two inherent weaknesses w/most horns out there, other than the cost no object examples. I had been considering the AG Duo, and thinking about reappraising the Tune Audio Anima, but these both use a single horn to cover mids/lwr mids-uppr bass, obv a compromise, and the 2.5x costlier Cessaro Liszt which chooses to use a 13" dynamic woofer to cover what your largest horn covers (no thanks, not at these exalted prices).
So my only other realistic alternative is the AG Trio w/single pair Basshorns G2. But I can't realistically afford £70k, hence for me my choice is practically going to be your Sadurnis, or stay Zu.

Please be focused on the original discussion on Sadurni (I truly respect for the company and the passion of the designer, great Horn)!

You already mentioned a lot of the use of Cessaro Lizt's mid bass driver. Liszt was designed to accommodated medium width and size room or little bit narrow room therefore big huge horn was out of the question. Hope you can respect the purpose for it. As for the cost vs performance, many owners of Liszt can may be answer it better. Cheers and happy listening.

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

No disrespect Johan, but at £70k, I need the Liszts to work in all kinds of rooms as long as they're suitably large. More square, or more rectangular, should not have a bearing esp at this price point.
To be frank, I've never seen any info re the Liszts that say the choice of horns in them is for longer, thinner rooms. I believe it's purely a matter of cost, w/the next model up, 2x more expensive, having the third larger horn.

audio-land · May 29, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
No disrespect Johan, but at £70k, I need the Liszts to work in all kinds of rooms as long as they're suitably large. More square, or more rectangular, should not have a bearing esp at this price point.
To be frank, I've never seen any info re the Liszts that say the choice of horns in them is for longer, thinner rooms. I believe it's purely a matter of cost, w/the next model up, 2x more expensive, having the third larger horn.

We never say Liszt cannot be performed for the large room, in fact Liszt are better in a larger room. Having installed Liszt in a 6,8x18 meter room, we can assure you that Liszt performed at a very powerfully dynamic with no strain even at a very high listening level.

We just said that Liszt can be worked for medium and narrow room like 4,5 meter width while Gamma needs a wider room.

audio-land · May 29, 2015

I know Ralph of Cessaro personally, his designs are based on purposes but cost. Liszt was designed so it can be worked for smaller rooms than Beta or Gamma period. Cost consideration is not his best interest at all. In fact, at our side, due to adequate rooms some customers have, it is easier selling Beta and Gamma instead of Liszt or even smaller versions.

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

Understood Johan. My issue w/the Liszt is that it uses a 13" dynamic cone driver to cover the lower mids-upper bass, whereas the Sadurni and Avantgarde Trio both utilise full sized horns. I actually very much like most of the character of the Liszt sound, but at a steep entry price, I'm happier going to these other two to get that third horn.
Can we please stick to Sadurni comments, the Liszt can be talked about elsewhere.

audio-land · May 29, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Understood Johan. My issue w/the Liszt is that it uses a 13" dynamic cone driver to cover the lower mids-upper bass, whereas the Sadurni and Avantgarde Trio both utilise full sized horns. I actually very much like most of the character of the Liszt sound, but at a steep entry price, I'm happier going to these other two to get that third horn.
Can we please stick to Sadurni comments, the Liszt can be talked about elsewhere.

Points taken. Sorry for hijacking the discussion. I heard Sadurni at the show but unless I personally heard Sadurni or any products in my room, I really can't comment for them.

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

No apology needed, we're all friends here (most of us!).

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

Keith, I believe the mid horn is a compression driver

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

You may also be interested to know that the company are prepared to offer me sale or return on the Sadurnis. That is, if things really don't work out, say maybe poor bass integration in my room that can't be solved etc, I can get a refund (minus reasonable expenses). And this is from a company based in Mexico importing to the UK. It's a shame I could not have secured a similar promise from you had the problematic room issue we all heard at the Liszts demo in your room been replicated in mine after purchase (even after I offered to cover you your reasonable expenses incl piano moving etc). And you're less than 5 miles from me.
Now if you can break the habit of a lifetime and actually answer a direct question w/a direct answer. Otherwise, maybe you can see why I'm minded to look elsewhere than your Liszts.

audio-land · May 29, 2015

(No apology needed, we're all friends here (most of us!).)

Glad to hear it, as a new member I really glad to find this forum with many big and warm heart members and friends here.

marslo · May 29, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Keith, I believe the mid horn is a compression driver

I follow your discussion with a big interest. As a happy AG Duo Omega owner I scheduled a visit to Avantgarde facility to carefuly listen to Mezzo and Trio with subwoofers ( the same as in Duo Grosso ).
SOF- I understand your point about the weakness of upper bass/ lower mids integration in Duo series but according to your information Sadurni moves this issue to the midrange where DUO's have not driver at all which is their big strength imo.
To be honest I prefer the outstanding midrange of my Duo Omega with no driver between 170 Hz and 2 kHz with a small compromise below 170 Hz instead of really perfect bass but for the price of worse midrange.
And Sadurni are nearly twice as expensive as Duo Omega. For me the real solution are Trio's with small subs, I have no space for basshorns . I'm not sure however this is cost effective compared to my actual setup. The law of diminishing returns tells mi it's not

Pls comment.
Mariusz

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

Johan, that is quite a portfolio you have there. I wish you good luck in business.
Keith, concur re impracticality of things. Did you ever consider having your Liszts at the window end of the room, and seating next to the door? Would give you a tad more room to fit things in.
My issue w/the Liszts is that at their price point you can get the AG Trios/Basshorns G2 w/third dedicated extra horn to cover lwr mids/upr bass, and the Sadurnis the same at half the cost. Surely a 13" dynamic driver is a compromise on all-horn spkr?
And can you please address that you refuse point blank to offer a refund if things just don't work out, even when I offer to cover reasonable moving expenses both ways if I feel need to pull the plug?
How is it that distributors thousands of miles away are happy to do so, but you less than 5 miles from me just will not contemplate it?
An answer please, straight and direct.

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

Marslo, I'm a little confused. I have heard the Duos, in a very similar system to you (Audio Aero and Lampi, but instead custom 1.5W/ch 45 tube amps). I really like the sound. A lot. Am I not right in thinking that the main horn in the Duos covers everything from below the tweeter horn to the woofer module, so covers mids, lwr mids, upr bass? And this will be the same in any spkr that has 2 rather than 3 horns, e.g. Tune Audio Anima? When you go to the next step up in size, cost and complexity, you now have the Trios w/the additional bigger horn, and then others like Cessaro Beta/new one at Munich, all the way to the Cessaro Omega which has even more horns, and the Magico Ultimate which I think is 5 way.
So AG believe 3 horns plus sub is needed for SOTA performance, thus the Duo to Trio, as does Cessaro, thus Chopin/Liszt to Beta.
Now we have the Sadurni, which has this configuration of extra horn. If it's good enough for Duo to Trio, two to three horns, why not Sadurni to have 3 to start?

marslo · May 29, 2015

Yes , you are right about crossover frequencies .According to the test of Duo Omega , the big horn covers the range from 170 Hz to 2kHz with no filtering at all , just the pure signal from the amp to the horn , its shape does the rest . The electric signal is not manipulated in any way and it's why the human voices and accoustic instruments sound so lifelike from Duos.
I understood from your post that Sadurni have a driver for the midrange tube which is smaller than this one in Duo.
But now I see you said " mid horn is a compression driver " , - there is no filtering like in Duo'S?

At Sadurni website I found the information about the drivers , it seems that every horn has a driver, am I right ?
http://sadurniacoustics.com/drivers.html

spiritofmusic · May 29, 2015

Marslo, I believe you mean the Duo use NO CROSSOVER (not no driver) in that 170Hz-2kHz region, and may be unique in that respect. I like that idea since my Zu's are crossoverless btwn 40Hz-11kHz. It may be that the Sadurnis have a more complex crossover since upper mids-upper bass is now covered by two horns not one.
Keith, yes the offer is very generous and critical in me even contemplating buying.

marslo · May 29, 2015

SOM, you are right, my mistake.

BD-Audio · May 29, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Marslo, I'm a little confused. I have heard the Duos, in a very similar system to you (Audio Aero and Lampi, but instead custom 1.5W/ch 45 tube amps). I really like the sound. A lot. Am I not right in thinking that the main horn in the Duos covers everything from below the tweeter horn to the woofer module, so covers mids, lwr mids, upr bass? And this will be the same in any spkr that has 2 rather than 3 horns, e.g. Tune Audio Anima? When you go to the next step up in size, cost and complexity, you now have the Trios w/the additional bigger horn, and then others like Cessaro Beta/new one at Munich, all the way to the Cessaro Omega which has even more horns, and the Magico Ultimate which I think is 5 way.
So AG believe 3 horns plus sub is needed for SOTA performance, thus the Duo to Trio, as does Cessaro, thus Chopin/Liszt to Beta.
Now we have the Sadurni, which has this configuration of extra horn. If it's good enough for Duo to Trio, two to three horns, why not Sadurni to have 3 to start?

Hello Marc,

To confirm the Anima is a 3 way front loaded horn not 2 way. Crossovers are set at 250 and 1500hz.
Horn subwoofer Kion is also due for launch shortly (premiered at Munich) operating from 23hz to around 40hz as needed.
http://www.tuneaudio.com/anima_specs.html

All the best,
Jack

LL21 · May 29, 2015

Saturntube,

I have enjoyed your answers here which appear to me (a non-techie) to be forthright, open and with a respectable pride of workmanship without ego. Thank you for taking the time...its been an enjoyable read, and its actually made me curious enough to visit your site and also do some further digging about your speakers.

Sadurni Acoustics horns - any thoughts?

Industry Expert

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

New Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads