OPPO and HDCD

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Does anyone know if you play an HDCD on an OPPO with HDCD enabled...using the digital coax out (OPPO as transport only), will that stream have the decoded HDCD data or will it still be encoded requiring the DAC I am plugging into to have HDCD decoding ? Thanks in advance.
 

NorthStar

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Christian, HDCD encoded CDs are decoded by the Oppo player when using its analog two-channel stereo output(s).

With digital connections (Coaxial, Optical, HDMI) the external DAC (or preamp, or receiver) needs to have a HDCD decoder in order to reproduce that HDCD metadata (higher dynamic range than PCM) encoded on the disc.
 

TBone

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No direct experience with HDCD coax out on the OPPO, but on my current HDCD player (Linn) the digital coax stream only includes the encoded HDCD data, it still requires the dac to decode ...
 

Ronm1

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I would expect that any spdif out would leave the data intact and unless one has the decode capability the extra bits are ignored at a DAC
 

TBone

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I would expect that any spdif out would leave the data intact and unless one has the decode capability the extra bits are ignored at a DAC

Correct about spdif, only to note: there is no extra bits. The code is in the dither.
 

rbbert

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Actually, according to Oppo (I emailed Customer Service a couple of years ago), when HDCD is enabled on the player, both HDMI and SPDIF (optical and coax) output a "20bit" 44.1 decoded signal. That's why Oppo suggests disabling HDCD in the player if the DAC also has HDCD capability; otherwise one gets lots of clicks and static. So you're good to go, Christian.

In fact, almost any question you have will be answered by Oppo customer service within a day at most; not uncommonly the answer is already present in their Wiki
 

NorthStar

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Does anyone know if you play an HDCD on an OPPO with HDCD enabled...using the digital coax out (OPPO as transport only), will that stream have the decoded HDCD data or will it still be encoded requiring the DAC I am plugging into to have HDCD decoding ? Thanks in advance.

Actually, according to Oppo (I emailed Customer Service a couple of years ago), when HDCD is enabled on the player, both HDMI and SPDIF (optical and coax) output a "20bit" 44.1 decoded signal. That's why Oppo suggests disabling HDCD in the player if the DAC also has HDCD capability; otherwise one gets lots of clicks and static. So you're good to go, Christian.

In fact, almost any question you have will be answered by Oppo customer service within a day at most; not uncommonly the answer is already present in their Wiki

From the digital coaxial output of the Oppo player (with the HDCD decoder enabled), the digital audio signal will be the one encoded on the disc, but it won't be decoded by an external DAC that doesn't have an HDCD decoder inside...it will simply play a nice music recording, but un-decoded, ...without the "superior" advantages of the HDCD encoding/decoding method.

* For very best sound with HDCD encoded CDs:
1. Use a CD player with an HDCD decoder/digital filter chip inside, and use its analog stereo (output) connection(s).
2. Or use one of the digital outputs of any CD player (Oppo included), with an external DAC (preamp, receiver) that has an HDCD decoder inside.

And if no HDCD decoder @ all; you still have a nice sounding CD music recording, or/and from the analog or/and digital connections, even better than a regular CD in most cases, from the same material and record label, but without the full advantages of HDCD decoding.

P.S. Hi Robert, nice to see you again.
 

rbbert

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But Bob, according to Oppo (and my ears) what you posted is not true.
 

rbbert

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Easy to test it youself. On an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend, decoding the HDCD drops the average volume by 6 dB in order to accomodate the 2-3 dB extra peak amplitude. Run a digital out to a DAC, turn the HDCD in the Oppo on and off and see what happens to the volume. Remember, this only works with an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend; on the majority of HDCD's (which don't use it) the volume stays the same.
 

TBone

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I've been searching the net concerning this and have had mixed comments. HDCD, is native 16bit with coded dither, how and why the OPPO outputs a 20bits HDCD signal seems puzzling. On one account, I read that the OPPO uses software based decoding, pre-dac to output a non-decode-able "fake" HDCD signal.

This from the PM Model 2 Manual:

... Once the perceptually important high-resolution information is identified, it is encoded
into a Compact Disc standard, 16-bit, 44.1 kHz, linear PCM signal using two methods. Part
of the information is added directly to the 16-bit signal by optimizing utilization of its
linear bits, and part is hidden in the LSB of the 16-bit signal. Over time, less than 5% of
the LSB is used for the hidden code. The encoded information is inaudible and causes no
perceptible loss of information.

16-bit Decoding
When an HDCD encoded signal is fed to conventional playback equipment, the additional
information in the signal is perceived as a clear improvement in fidelity. When the same
signal is fed to an HDCD decoding system, the information hidden in the LSB tells the
system that the signal is HDCD encoded, and directs the decoding to reconstruct the high
resolution signal, which is then output in the correct form for the D/A converter being
used. Decoding can be performed by the Pacific Microsonics PMD-200 HDCD decoder DSP
ASIC, other ASIC’s including a one chip HDCD decoder and 24-bit D/A converter from Burr-
Brown, and HDCD coded DSP based chips from Motorola, Analog Devices, Zoran, Mediamatics,
Crystal Semiconductor and others.

There are two subsets to the HDCD process, 16-bit amplitude domain encoding and time
domain encoding. The Model Two provides the option of turning off decoding of the 16-bit
amplitude domain functions of the HDCD process for monitoring purposes. This is done in
either the Second Operating Menu, Levels Menu, or Monitor Setup Menu. See pages 41 -
43, and 61 for additional information. Time domain decoding is automatic with HDCD
decoder filtering and cannot be turned off.

HDCD Indicator
The HDCD Indicator on the Model Two consists of a blue or amber LED back lit HDCD logo.
For additional information, see the HDCD Indicator description on page 18.

Peak Extension and HDCD Limiting
Peak Extension is normally used when converting analog or high resolution 24-bit or 20-
bit digital signals to HDCD 16-bit amplitude encoded signals. Peak Extension is a digital
soft limiter, with a curve that mimics analog tape saturation, except that on decoding the
peaks are restored. Peak Extension can be used for several purposes: to provide headroom
to capture occasional peaks or as a method to raise the average signal level to create a
“hot” recording. Peak extension allows raising the average level of a recording as much as
6 dB without overload. Of course, like any limiter, if overused it can produce audible
distortion when not decoded. Decoding restores the limited peaks, eliminating any distor-
tion that might be audible. Therefore, whenever peak extension is used, the output should
be monitored with HDCD 16-bit amplitude decoding both on and off to determine how
much peak extension is appropriate. Peak Extension does not need to be used when the
original program material has limited dynamic range.

HDCD Limiting is identical to Peak Extension except HDCD Limiting is not undone by HDCD
playback decoding, and is used for its limiting effect with all types of playback.
The Model Two HDCD Processor has Peak Extension Meters which indicate the extended
dynamic range available when in HDCD Peak Extension or HDCD Limiting modes. The Peak
Extension meters are only active when monitoring HDCD 16-bit amplitude encoded signals
that contain peak extension. With HDCD Limiting, the Peak Extension Meters only indicate
during recording. Peak Extension and HDCD Limiting can be turned On or Off in the Second
Operating Menu or the Digital Output HDCD Setup Menu. The default is Off. See pages 35,

Low Level Extension
Low Level Extension is an average signal level based, low level compression/expansion
system used on HDCD 16-bit amplitude encoded recordings which very gradually raises
gain a preset amount when the average signal level drops below a preset threshold. During
HDCD 16-bit decoded playback the compression curve is expanded back to linear gain by
the HDCD decoder, using a precisely mapped inverse of the curve controlled by a hidden
code, producing a dynamic range and resolution floor beyond 16-bit. Low Level Extension
can be turned On or Off in the Second Operating Menu or the Digital Output HDCD Setup
Menu. The default is Off. See pages 36, 41 and 51 for additional information.

Gain Scaling
HDCD 16-bit recordings using peak extension, when decoded, have an increase of 6 dB in
headroom compared to 16-bit recordings without peak extension. Therefore, it is neces-
sary to scale their playback level up by 6 dB to match the average level of non-peak
extended 16-bit recordings. Gain scaling is accomplished in the digital domain by the
Model Two, which reduces the monitor level by 6dB whenever a 16-bit signal without peak
extension is detected. Gain Scaling can be set to On (automatic) or Off in the Monitor
Setup Menu or the Second Operating Menu. When monitoring 24-bit or 20-bit signals, Gain
Scaling is normally Off. When monitoring 16-bit signals, scaling is normally On (auto-
matic) and monitor gain is increased by 6 dB for HDCD signals with Peak Extend. See pages
42, 57 and 61 for additional information.

Processing HDCD 16-bit Signals
When digital processing of an HDCD encoded 16-bit signal is needed, the Model Two is
first used to convert it to a 24-bit or 20-bit word length. When editing or processing is
completed, the Model Two is used again to convert the signal back to HDCD 16-bit.
Any process or signal path through which HDCD 16-bit amplitude encoded signals are
passed must not affect the bit structure of the signal. Digital processing which alters the
data will destroy the HDCD encoded information located within the LSB of the signal.
Digital processing includes any level changes, EQ, dither, etc. Butt splices or rapid cross
fades are allowable, but certain rules apply. For additional information see page 33.

HDCD Silence
HDCD Silence is automatically generated by the Model Two HDCD Processor when it pro-
duces HDCD encoded output with no input program audio. HDCD silence contains dither
and HDCD code within the LSB of the signal which tells an HDCD decoder that it is an HDCD
signal. For additional information see page 33.
 

NorthStar

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Easy to test it youself. On an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend, decoding the HDCD drops the average volume by 6 dB in order to accomodate the 2-3 dB extra peak amplitude. Run a digital out to a DAC, turn the HDCD in the Oppo on and off and see what happens to the volume. Remember, this only works with an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend; on the majority of HDCD's (which don't use it) the volume stays the same.

? Knowledge Base: When to Enable HDCD Decoding | Oppo BDP-95

If you think it's a little confusing, you're not alone.
{I have several CD, DVD, BR universal players with HDCD decoding (with the Pacific Microsonics digital decoder/filter chip inside), including the Oppo 103, and I also have a receiver with internal HDCD decoding, Denon, and all of them are not created equal; digitally.}

__________

* http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/question-about-hdcd-decoding-and-dacs.267166/ --> Posts #6 to #16
* http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/hdcd-question.241101/ --> Post #13

__________

I know Amir would be able to contribute here...and meanwhile I'll search some more, specifically about the Oppo players with HDCD decoding and the HDCD toggle switch function, like in my Oppo 103 player, because that's the main on topic question from Christian, our OP, when sending a digital audio stream to the digital coaxial output...PCM fs: 44.1kHz ...The bits are stil 16-Bit (PCM) @ 20-bit extrapolation (higher dynamic range).
 
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NorthStar

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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
We know that several Oppo BR players (eg.; 93-95-103-105) decode HDCD encoded discs and reproduce the benefits from their analog outputs.

<<>> Now the question is: Can they decode those HDCD discs digitally from their digital HDMI, coaxial and optical outputs to an external DAC that doesn't have an HDCD decoder on board, and still reap the full benefits?

From all my HDCD players; NO. ...But now my Oppo BR player has me questioning the "new" standards/values of my own understanding based on my old audio concepts.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Yes, see my post #10. The longer definition T-Bone quoted explains how and why the Oppo players do what they do.

So, those Oppo players, with that HDCD toggle switch, would be the only ones that can can decode HDCD discs and send the decoded audio signal digitally with the full benefits?
All my players send an HDCD audio signal, even without an HDCD decoder inside (I copied few of them, bit-for-bit), but then they need to be decoded afterwards for playback by a dedicated HDCD decoding playback machine.
 

NorthStar

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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Easy to test it youself. On an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend, decoding the HDCD drops the average volume by 6 dB in order to accomodate the 2-3 dB extra peak amplitude. Run a digital out to a DAC, turn the HDCD in the Oppo on and off and see what happens to the volume. Remember, this only works with an HDCD utilizing Peak Extend; on the majority of HDCD's (which don't use it) the volume stays the same.

I just finished playing an HDCD encoded music CD recording, from my Oppo 103...and tested the digital HDMI output and the straight analog output into my Integra DHC-80.3 SSP sans HDCD decoding inside the SSP. ...Volume is the same.



* I have over 500 HDCDs, which ones that you know off that have "Peak Extend" encoding in them? ...Is there a list for them?
 

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