Munich High End Show 2015 - what did you really learn?

spiritofmusic

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Thought I would post this one up here, rather than in the show thread. The editorial on 6Moons, MonoAndStereo, and a contributor to Audio Exotics Forum, normally full of praise for Munich, are pretty brutal about the offerings this yr, w/only a few products sounding anywhere near decent let alone good, hardly any outstanding. Rooms coming in for serious criticism are the Magico/Soulution, Kharma Grand Exquisite/Kharma, Cessaro/Cessaro. Even the big Living Voice/Kondo has had mixed comments. Those that seemed to perform were the Blumenhofer and Goebel. I'm sure there were a few more. And others were on static display like the La Assoluta. Clever, they know something.
Just what is the point of all this? Are we to take that this advert for the high end is happy to produce substandard sound, just being there is reason enough? Or are there serious issues which the exhibitors are not addressing/don't want to? And why can some rooms sound impressive? Maybe the exhibitors can't hear the crap on offer?
I have to say if I was going, and a product I was interested in was sounding pants, I would never revisit that product. Then again, maybe I'm not the typical well-loaded uber high-end consumer, that is just mesmerised by the name and the bling on offer, and doesn't listen.
Eg I've never heard Cessaro sound coherent at demos, show reports are always meh, but they lap up the brand in Asia. In fact this Audio Exotics post was the first anti-Cessaro post I've EVER seen from that particular customer base.
Go to Munich 2016? Nah, I'm painting my nails!
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, I'm not going to get into an argument w/you on this. You know I loved the character of the sound, but I've heard horns in similar rooms to your's, and there never was this room anomaly in the bass. Horns ultimately are not for me. But you were happy to sell them to me sounding anomalous, so what does that say?
Re Munich, a post states that the bass was just not working at Munich w/the big Cessaros, and when it was highlighted Ralph said that was how he liked it.
Everything that's wrong about the high end.
This is not an anti Cessaro bash, just that they've been highlighted multiple times, and so what is the point of all this. Would you have bought that Euros 500k set up if you'd just heard Cessaro for the first time, if you were in a position? And also same q to those who went into the Magico/Soulution room? Etc Etc.
 

bonzo75

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Munich rooms are mostly awful. Even at the small show in Windsor here the rooms are much better. I have actually heard two speakers that had almost no bass at Munich, and had normal proper bass when I heard them later at a dealer's room. I don't like the Animas in Munich though they are my favorite speakers. For all the comments on the forum, I really struggle to see how people judge electronics at Munich - I just wouldn't. There are some rarities that sound good, but for all you know that room might be better - you just can't tell.

However Munich is a great place for OCD audiophiles to go and lust over things. The other thing the show allows you to do is shortlist stuff for later demos. You just have to be honest with yourself that your impressions based on a Munich demo won't be necessarily accurate. This year one of my main reasons was to just go and listen to the WE.
 
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KeithR

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Marc, you have to understand that a loudspeaker may have a perfectly flat response when measured anechoically or free field.
But once you place that same loudspeaker into a room, then it's interaction with the room changes everything.
The ideal would be to have an acoustically perfect room.
I showed you my room's frequency response graph which clearly depicted the large peak at 50Hz , ( the cause of your anonoly) which is nothing to do with the speakers but is a room node, caused entirely by the dimensions of the room.
I have now passively treated the room and managed to reduce that node, I can erase it completely using DRC of course.
If you remember when I showed you the FR of your room which has a large bass suck out, and a rolled off treble response, every room is different and plays a huge part in the sound of the system.
Keith.

Rooms are tough and good to eliminate nodes with treatment...but a gently rolled off treble is actually normal and preferable.
 

audio-land

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Keith, I'm not going to get into an argument w/you on this. You know I loved the character of the sound, but I've heard horns in similar rooms to your's, and there never was this room anomaly in the bass. Horns ultimately are not for me. But you were happy to sell them to me sounding anomalous, so what does that say?
Re Munich, a post states that the bass was just not working at Munich w/the big Cessaros, and when it was highlighted Ralph said that was how he liked it.
Everything that's wrong about the high end.
This is not an anti Cessaro bash, just that they've been highlighted multiple times, and so what is the point of all this. Would you have bought that Euros 500k set up if you'd just heard Cessaro for the first time, if you were in a position? And also same q to those who went into the Magico/Soulution room? Etc Etc.
The Cessaro on the Munich was coming with the front loaded subwoofer power by an active amplifiers. Ralph and Thomas of TW may have preference taste of music and set up. They could be play as deep and as low as possible for sure if they really wanted it. Again it is an active 150hz below.

When Ralph install big Cessaro at customers room, he always went on what customer's preferences. Ralph likes a bit tamed down on the bass when he first sets an active system like Beta or Gamma then he gradually increases it as owner wants it.

The strongest point of Cessaro is dynamic with electrostatic clarity and unbelievable fast deep down chest punching bass available we have ever heard especially with front loaded horn bass.

Solid wall is preferred and recommended.

For demo at our room, we mostly play rocks to heavy metals up to 100db (bring your dB level) , no Nina Bobo Audiophile stuffs.

If anyone is planning to go Jakarta for business or other reasons, please feel free to let us know!! Don't forget bring your Baroness LP !! We will rock you and have fun.
 

marty

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Rooms are tough and good to eliminate nodes with treatment...but a gently rolled off treble is actually normal and preferable.

Totally agree. Please see www.bksv.com/doc/17-197.pdf. Specifically, look at Figure 5 (below). Let's not re-invent the wheel please. Several decades of psychoacoustic research by many folks, most notable the Harmon group over the past 10 years, have confirmed what B&K initially reported at the AES meeting in 1974. It's all about frequency response. And the ideal frequency response at the listening position using 1/3rd Octave analysis, is NOT flat! Indeed, a gently rolled-off treble has been validated as preferred over and over again. Of course, this is for a broad group of listeners and certainly YMMV.

Fig 5.jpg
 

Al M.

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Thought I would post this one up here, rather than in the show thread. The editorial on 6Moons, MonoAndStereo, and a contributor to Audio Exotics Forum, normally full of praise for Munich, are pretty brutal about the offerings this yr, w/only a few products sounding anywhere near decent let alone good, hardly any outstanding. Rooms coming in for serious criticism are the Magico/Soulution, Kharma Grand Exquisite/Kharma, Cessaro/Cessaro. Even the big Living Voice/Kondo has had mixed comments.

Could you please provide links? I only could find the MonoAndStereo report.

Thanks
Al
 

spiritofmusic

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Al, Sjraen on 6Moons posts his total frustration w/most sounds, MonoAndStereo Day 2 report is pretty scathing, and there is an Asian contributor to the Audio Exotics Forum, who for the first time on that outlet, was pretty unhappy too.
 

Al M.

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Al, Sjraen on 6Moons posts his total frustration w/most sounds, MonoAndStereo Day 2 report is pretty scathing, and there is an Asian contributor to the Audio Exotics Forum, who for the first time on that outlet, was pretty unhappy too.

That's fine, Spirit, but I can't find the links except for MonoAndStereo. When you refer to articles/opinions, it is customary to supply links. Please do so, thanks.
 

Atmasphere

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May 4, 2010
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I heard several good rooms at Munich. I'm not a solid state fan but the Vitus room had very good sound- no doubt their excellent method of room treatment was part of the reason. The room with the Titan amplifiers was good too. I thought we had the best sound we ever had at a show so I liked our room a lot too. Jim Aud of Purist Audio had a program that predicted the best location for the speakers, and Purist had been in the same room for several years and so knew it fairly well. Despite having no room treatment other than lots and lots of people (the foot traffic at Munich is way better than any US show) the room was neither boomy nor bright.

The WE room on the 2nd floor had excellent potential but the channel balance was off when I was there. I liked it a lot otherwise. One floor up I saw a horn-loaded open back loudspeaker that also sounded quite nice. Like with all shows, its a good idea to make your assessment on the 3rd day- when things are finally sorted out. In that regard most of the rooms I stopped into actually sounded pretty good. But I did not listen to all the rooms- as an exhibitor there was no time for that!
 

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