Opinions on the Magico V3?

JackD201

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Yeah, it's when folks put dollar amounts to it that all hell breaks loose. That's as subjective as enjoyment itself. I believe it's always best left to the individual to decide.
 

marty

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I've had limited time with both, but I think the Sashas have higher resolution with similar musicality. As others mentioned, that is a different issue from "value".
 

ack

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I agree w Gary completely. The Magico V3 is not, in my view, a musical speaker as it does not integrate

Quick update on some of the speakers mentioned in this thread.

  1. V3: I have listened to this speaker a number of times with my electronics, and I still find my MLs more musical, although they are not that "together" as other more expensive speakers are, including the V3. In fact, I was in to audition the V3's driven by the Spectral DMA-360 Series 2's and I ended up taking home the amps, and eventually purchasing them. Overall, I think the V3's are a ground-breaking design, and it has shown so by how it's been able to get other manufacturers to improve their own designs and even lower their prices. But again, I am not sure it's that musical; will probably wait for the Q3.
  2. Avalons: They have not been mentioned here probably because the good ones are out of this price range (Isis, et al). Frankly, I've always found some Avalons boring, and one of them, the $15K Opus, downright unacceptable - not worth the eggs and tomatoes I could have easily thrown at it.
  3. Marten: The Bird looks interesting... trying to find out the quality of crossover parts they use. But my God - when will most manufacturers stop using MDF!!!
  4. CLX: As I mentioned earlier, I have listened to it with my own electronics, and I was truly smitten. Construction is average to good. But the sound is simply stunning. It's a contender for me since I have the sub; space is an issue.
  5. SummitX: As Myles mentioned elsewhere, I might not have listened to them properly set up. The numerous times I have it was with my previous amp, the Spectral DMA-250, which may not have done the speaker justice. Still, ICEPower and sharp box edges is not what I consider high end. I will put them back on the list based on others' comments.
  6. Venture: As I investigate this, I came across something a little alarming; if you look at the bottom of http://www.venture-audio.com/default.aspx?lc=nl&CatID=18 there is a picture of a resistor they use in their crossovers. Well, I have used the same resistor type myself (metal clad wire-wound 1% made by NTE), and it costs about $10... I then switched to Caddocks (50W, 4 and 6 Ohms) and the difference in quality in huge, as is the price and the sound... The speakers' asking price doesn't justify the use of such parts.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
 
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Elliot G.

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THey need a large solid state amp to make them work. Bass is a bit weird to me. Try the Nola mini grands 15k and work in small room and with tubes!
 

garylkoh

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But my God - when will most manufacturers stop using MDF!!!

Why? MDF (if properly specified and from a good supplier) has a tight tolerance with regard to density, hardness and stiffness. Being manufactured from very short fibers, they naturally absorb high frequencies, and they do not ring or resonate as much as metal.

For metal to work, it has to be extremely thick so that when you strike it, it does not resonate at any audio-related frequencies. And then there are other problems with using metals.

Plywood is great, but year to year it is extremely difficult to get the same density, hardness and stiffness. Every batch of cabinets would sound different.


[*]Venture: As I investigate this, I came across something a little alarming; if you look at the bottom of http://www.venture-audio.com/default.aspx?lc=nl&CatID=18 there is a picture of a resistor they use in their crossovers. Well, I have used the same resistor type myself (metal clad wire-wound 1% made by NTE), and it costs about $10... I then switched to Caddocks (50W, 4 and 6 Ohms) and the difference in quality in huge, as is the price and the sound... The speakers' asking price doesn't justify the use of such parts.

If Venture can make those resistors work, then why shouldn't they use them? Inside your Spectral amplifiers, they use capacitors from United Chemicon that I wouldn't touch because others sound far better. But that's not to say that the Spectral amp doesn't sound spectacular using those capacitors.
 

ack

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1) When I look at the response curves of thousands of speakers over the last few decades, they are all over the place - to me this says that the box itself is part of this, and quite naturally I find it hard to believe that MDF is the best material for speakers, especially at the stratospheric prices they demand.

2) Those resistors are actually made of iron as the conducting material - I fail to see the benefit in that. As for Spectral, I am disappointed too that they don't use Blackgates, Mundorfs and such, but don't forget - they've claimed in their TAS review that they price their products at just 3X the cost of parts... I would be very mad had they chosen to price like a lot of other manufacturers.
 
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garylkoh

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I didn't say that mdf is the best material for loudspeakers, but there is nothing inherently wrong with mdf. Some manufacturers think that they have better material - Wilson with their special material, Magico with aluminum, Wilson Benesch with their carbon fibre, Crystal Cable with glass, etc.

I think that the real reason that you see the curves of loudspeakers all over the place is that of all the components in the hifi chain, the loudspeaker is the most difficult to do right. ( :D ducking from all the rotten eggs and tomatoes thrown at me by every other manufacturer on the planet )

The reason I say that is that save for single-driver loudspeakers, loudspeaker designers have to take the musical signal, break it apart (into 2 or more pieces) and pray that the signal re-assembles correctly at the listener's ear. As I've discovered over the past 5 years, even the math and assumptions made for most "traditional" crossover algorithms are flawed. It gets exponentially more difficult when going to a 3-way and 4-way loudspeaker, and astronomically more difficult once you have with active bass, ports, isobaric loading, transmission lines, etc.

There is also nothing inherently wrong with using iron as the conducting material in a wire-wound resistor because if they used ultra-pure copper, by the time you can get enough resistance from copper, inductance and capacitance would be too high, and the resistor would be huge. I would be extremely surprised if you told me that the Caddock resistors are copper-wound.

If the Spectral retail price is 3x the price of parts, I am surprised that they and their dealers are still in business. Their workers either assemble for free, or they don't test their amplifiers before shipping them out, or there is no warranty, or their dealers don't make a profit. May be what they mean is that their dealer price is 3x the price of parts.
 

ack

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I would be extremely surprised if you told me that the Caddock resistors are copper-wound.

They are not. I suggest you check them out, if nothing else for your own speakers; a little research will tell you what they are made of. Truly superb stuff and about $50 a piece retail. Here's what they look like:

IMG_0752-2..JPG

And frankly, when we spend thousands of dollars for our speaker cables the last thing I would expect is cheap crossover parts in megabuck speakers; but perhaps that's just me.

If the Spectral retail price is 3x the price of parts... May be what they mean is that their dealer price is 3x the price of parts.

No, they are referring to retail price that consumers pay. As you may perhaps know, Fryer has another extremely successful business (see this thread, where Greggadd has copied a relevant part of their TAS interview), and I have even heard rumors from an ex dealer that his family used to own (still owns???) a fine CA winery (Ridge???) - but this is just a rumor.
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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No boxes, no estat dynamic limitations, no passive crossover distortions, remarkable mid/high coherency, incredibly open, controlled, deep bass without subs, and imaging to die for. As a side benefit, you get to sell your amps to recoup some of the cost. Drawbacks? 1) It's not easy to hear a pair, though you may be able to find a willing owner in your area. 2) Low bragging rights as most audiophiles haven't heard them, many haven't heard of them and they're not expensive enough to be taken seriously by quite a few:




Linkwitz Orions, an active, hybrid dipole/bipole design. Basically DIY, but Linkwitz has a partnership with a woodworking company that will build them for you.

P
 

garylkoh

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This is ack's thread, but IMO, it doesn't seem right, that the CEO of Genesis Advanced Technologies is lurking around making comments about other manufacturer's designs, parts and construction without them having an opportunity to respond.

That being the case, I'll drop out. Sorry.
 

DaveyF

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Just for myself, I actually am appreciating what garylkoh has been bringing to this thread. Clearly, other manufacturers are unable to defend themselves here, but if a product is potentially flawed in some way, I would like to hear that product exposed..albeit leaving the benefit of the doubt on the table. (Which I would think we can all do).
So, again just for my part, Gary please do continue.:cool:
 

ack

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Just for the record - in private PMs, Gary has acknowledged to me that Caddocks do sound better than iron-core resistors, even pointed me to even better Vishay products for my projects, and went so far as to offer to get me parts not available for retail, if I ever wish to. I think we should close this matter.

From my perspective, my point on all this is simple: I view the high end as an art, since it's trying to reproduce art, and I expect manufacturers to push the limits of this art. My expectations are raised with every dollar they command for their products, and considering how much a lot of these products cost, I expect A LOT. To that extent, I have done my share of criticism in writing directly to Spectral (since they came up in this thread), and they seem to have responded by improving their products; case in point, the poor crosstalk figures in their older preamps (which I have measured and so did Stereophile back in ~1995 with the DMC-20), which they acknowledged to being attributed to the potentiometer in use, and later on came up with this ultra-expensive one in the 30SS, which presumably solves the problem (but I haven't measured this preamp yet). This is how I would expect worthy manufacturers to respond, and push the limits of the art.

We should really get back on track, though - the sound of the V3... are there no V3 owners in here??? I will go back and audition them again; maybe I was predisposed...
 

Elliot G.

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I personally don't think the product matches the hype. I am not saying it is not a good speaker however it is not the product the reviews have made it out to be. I have the smae opinion of the Revel Salon that got all that press.
 

sydsrig

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I am starting a long search for new speakers in the V3's price range, which I have auditioned a number of times, but am not sure that it's as musical my Martin Logans. What have been others' experiences with this speaker?

For some reason I have never warmed up to them, and I have heard them in pretty ideal conditions from my point of view (see post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?599-Magico-Q5-demo-at-Goodwin-s/page4)

You also mentioned that you heard the CLX's sound fantastic in some setups. Could you elaborate more on what those setups were and how they sounded in them? I also heard the CLX's (as pointed out in my previously mentioned post as well) and assume you found a sub match for those speakers that worked? Inquiring minds want to know!
 

ack

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You also mentioned that you heard the CLX's sound fantastic in some setups. Could you elaborate more on what those setups were and how they sounded in them? I also heard the CLX's (as pointed out in my previously mentioned post as well) and assume you found a sub match for those speakers that worked? Inquiring minds want to know!

At the local dealer, in their large room 22x30x11H, driven by my Spectral electronics; same set up used for one of the the V3's auditions (and other speakers like the Q5). The subs were a pair of JL212, but for most of the audition, I turned the them off so as to get a good picture of the CLX's bass. The sound was so palpable, so clean and complete, so free of grain that you just have to hear. It's been over a year now I believe, so I can't give you more details at the moment, but I will once I go back in there. I've also heard the 212's accompany the Magico M5's in there, and frankly, they are extremely good subs that you just don't hear, but I have never sat down to focus on just the subs.
 

sydsrig

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At the local dealer, in their large room 22x30x11H, driven by my Spectral electronics; same set up used for one of the the V3's auditions (and other speakers like the Q5). The subs were a pair of JL212, but for most of the audition, I turned the them off so as to get a good picture of the CLX's bass. The sound was so palpable, so clean and complete, so free of grain that you just have to hear. It's been over a year now I believe, so I can't give you more details at the moment, but I will once I go back in there. I've also heard the 212's accompany the Magico M5's in there, and frankly, they are extremely good subs that you just don't hear, but I have never sat down to focus on just the subs.

That's exactly what I heard back in April in the same room except for the subs. My reaction was the same as yours. I just wish I had a chance to hear them with the subs, as I will have to hear them with my own hears to beleive that they integrate properly with those thin, lightweight and lightning fast CLX panels. I number of people have commented positvely on this combination, but it's difficult to accept on faith given the challenging history of properly integrating electrostatics and subs.

Let me know when you plan on getting back there to hear them. I may join you... Have you heard any other fantastic setups with the CLX's (I don't mean to hijack this thread...)?
 

JackD201

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In your opinion, what speaker(s) is/are better than the V3s at this price point?

I would imagine those would be the pair he preferred and bought when he was evaluating them both.
 

Steve Williams

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I would imagine those would be the pair he preferred and bought when he was evaluating them both.

I also mentioned the Sophia lll which I heard recently with Spectral DM 260 in a very large room and it was kick ass incredible.
 

sydsrig

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I also mentioned the Sophia lll which I heard recently with Spectral DM 260 in a very large room and it was kick ass incredible.

I'm pretty sure the Sasha's would rock quite well in a spectral system. I heard that speaker on a variety of electronics and think they are real competition to the V3's. I also heard the Nola Metro Grand Reference with Audio Research Gear that sounded pretty darn good. I think that speaker is in the low 20k range. The Martin Logan CLX's are also a favorite of mine, although as noted in some of the posts above, integration with a sub for real bass (if you want to get below 50Hz or so Hz) needs to be investigated. For something completely different, check out an MBL product. I beleive the 116 fits into the V3 price point and is a whole different kind of listening experience. Not for everyone though, especially if there is a bias against Omni speakers.

These speakers represent a variety of different approaches/technolnogies that vary in terms of the their protrayal of reproduced music. I enjoy listening to the variety of presentations as it really tests my preferences and convictions.
 

FrantzM

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Too bad the Sashas weren't available before you bought the VR-5s.

I would beg to differ on this ... The VR-5 are the real deal to me.. Robust and quick .. I personaly find them superior to the Sashas and do hold the same opinion about the VR-4 over the previous Sophias (I have not yet heard the Sophias III yet) ...

Since opinions are asked , I find it quite curious that there no mention of the formidable Rockport or Evolution Acoustics speakers in this discussion .. These to me along with the Von Scweikert are amongs the best box speakers one should look into ... The real contenders... I particulalrly like the modular concept of the Evolution Acoustics MM series where one can grow up to the MM3 from the MM1 ...
 

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