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edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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Additional note is I did all A/B testing in real time. Starting the exact same track on two servers at the same time and switched inputs on my DAC. I don't trust my sonic memory one bit when looking for what are expected to be subtle changes, and need to compare in real time.

Biggest difference is 44/16 between a/v streamer and CAPS. Caps seems fuller sounding, but streamer seems more transparent in hgihs. I'll do some more testing and may decide to keep both if I really feel I materially prefer the CAPS. I'll try to convince myself it is not worth it, because the whole point of this excercise for me was to consolidate servers.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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Additional datapoint in this debate. I now have three high grade servers in the house - a battery powered CAPS 3.0 USB (about $3,500), a Monster Server with Lynx AES/EBU MCH card (about $4,000), and the Pink Faun A/V Streamer with I2S bridge (about $5,000). Downstream is a PS audio Directstream DAC. All testing done with 2 channel.

I just did a shootout. Here is what I found.

a/v streamer and Monster are equivalent on 44/16
CAPS 3.0 beats the a/v streamer and Moster by a small margin on 44/16.
a/v streamer beats Monster by a small margin on high rez material

The difference are splitting hair and not worth fretting over. I could happily live with all three. I will consolidate my two servers to the a/v streamer (may be keep the CAPS - not sure yet).

So provisional conculsion is there are no indeed no major differences between high caliber servers, if the downstream digital processing is up to snuff. I suspect none of the dedicated 5 figure servers (Beatis, "The Beast etc.) will beat ony of my three sources by a material margin (if at all). Can't prove this without trying of course.

Thank you for sharing!
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Networked systems act and work exactly like USB async. The problem they bring with them is lots of system activity in the DAC itself. Lots and lots of code is now running inside the DAC's CPU subsystem and if not impeccably isolated, it can bleed into the DAC much like we see in cheap computer motherboard sound. Indeed it says the same thing in that article:

"The totaldac d1-server is based on an 800MHz ARM based Cubox minicomputer running RTLinux (Real-Time Linux) and the MPD music player daemon."

If it is one time you don't want to brag about having a computer inside something, it is a DAC :). It goes to say the "right" thing:

"There's an integrated "digital reclocker" which accounts for a large chunk of the d1-server's price—the d1-digital reclocker is available as a stand alone device from totaldac for about $4,900 while you can pick up a Cubox 2" cube computer for around $100. "

A "reclocker" is mandatory in a network device as there is no sample accurate clock available in general computer networking to drive the DAC. The DAC will use its own clock and request data to arrive asynchronously from the network source. In that sense, there is nothing to reclock. There is only one clock and it is the master driving the DAC.

I don't know what the heck this means though:

"In order to use the reclocker, you have to run a USB cable on the back of the d1-server from the integrated minicomputer's USB Type-A output (the one on the bottom) to the USB Type-B input. This setup also allows you to use the reclocker with an external source. The reclocker uses the same asynchronous fifo memory as the d1-dual DAC and according to totaldac, "...it also has an internal clock which strongly attenuates the jitter of any digital source"."

Minicomputer??? Minicomputers went out of the business in 1980s. Embedded microcomputer is what is inside the DAC. Not sure what they are saying is being done with USB inside of a DAC driven by sources other than USB???

But answering your question, the only way to evaluate any such claims is with measurements. Words about how they clock this and that are worthless. If we are discussing engineering topics then there better be engineering proof points. Can't say reclock this and that and for the proof say how "musical" the DAC sounds.


The biggest and only issue with UPnP servers is reliability. They cannot change the sound quality. They are at the end of a wet noodle. They can do what they want and it won't move the other end. They are sitting on a different computer, linked asynchronously to a client DAC. They simply have no ability to change fidelity.

UPnP does not support FLAC which means that the server will decompress that into PCM and send that over the wire. Yes, that increases the server's CPU but that CPU is not sitting inside the networked DAC so it cannot influence its performance. If you are getting reliable stream of music, then the server has done its job and replacing one for another will not make a difference.


The only synergy is from reliability point of view. UPnP is one of those "standards" which was never tested very well. To the extent there is a server and networked client that are designed to work together, you will get more reliable operation potentially. But that is it. Changing one for the other should only be done for reliability sake, not sound fidelity.

Now, you can build a really, really bad networked player where everything from its CPU does bleeds into the DAC. In that case, yes, changing any network activity will cause its DAC to run differently. Say one server that is decompression FLAC produces pauses every 1 millisecond when it is decompressing the file and then it bursts it out on the network. That 1 KHz cadence can bleed into the DAC. But this is not a problem with the server but absolutely horrible networked DAC implementation. The server is compliant with what it is supposed to do: produce data. Its job is not to produce analog sound. It is the job of the networked DAC to produce high fidelity audio samples from what is by definition an noisy asynchronous digital audio feed. Again, measurements will tell us the competence of such designs/designers.

At high level, we must engineer products well. Only then we can (maybe :) ) dabble into secondary considerations of "how does it sound." If a networked DAC's objective measurements show it to produce different data when you change the UPnP server, you don't get to second argument of "but it sounds good to my ear." The thing is broken :). That you think it produces good sound is neither here, nor there in my book.

Outstanding post, Amir! Maybe a framework for a new article targeted to new-comers to this arena?
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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...

Now, you can build a really, really bad networked player where everything from its CPU does bleeds into the DAC. In that case, yes, changing any network activity will cause its DAC to run differently. Say one server that is decompression FLAC produces pauses every 1 millisecond when it is decompressing the file and then it bursts it out on the network. That 1 KHz cadence can bleed into the DAC. But this is not a problem with the server but absolutely horrible networked DAC implementation. The server is compliant with what it is supposed to do: produce data. Its job is not to produce analog sound. It is the job of the networked DAC to produce high fidelity audio samples from what is by definition an noisy asynchronous digital audio feed. Again, measurements will tell us the competence of such designs/designers.

At high level, we must engineer products well. Only then we can (maybe :) ) dabble into secondary considerations of "how does it sound." If a networked DAC's objective measurements show it to produce different data when you change the UPnP server, you don't get to second argument of "but it sounds good to my ear." The thing is broken :). That you think it produces good sound is neither here, nor there in my book.

Amir,

So can you test if you have a "badly engineered" network player/ streamer by sending the digital signal out to a well-engineered (or your preferred) outboard DAC? Will that help overcome any issues with the network player?
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
Amir,

So can you test if you have a "badly engineered" network player/ streamer by sending the digital signal out to a well-engineered (or your preferred) outboard DAC? Will that help overcome any issues with the network player?
You mean a three-piece system of a server->network client->DAC? If so, sure. You can emulate the latter two blocks by using a PC/MAC connected using async USB. We know such a config works and can produce superlative results irrespective of where the bits come from.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Additional datapoint in this debate. I now have three high grade servers in the house - a battery powered CAPS 3.0 USB (about $3,500), a Monster Server with Lynx AES/EBU MCH card (about $4,000), and the Pink Faun A/V Streamer with I2S bridge (about $5,000). Downstream is a PS audio Directstream DAC. All testing done with 2 channel.

I just did a shootout. Here is what I found.

a/v streamer and Monster are equivalent on 44/16
CAPS 3.0 beats the a/v streamer and Moster by a small margin on 44/16.
a/v streamer beats Monster by a small margin on high rez material

The difference are splitting hair and not worth fretting over. I could happily live with all three. I will consolidate my two servers to the a/v streamer (may be keep the CAPS - not sure yet).

So provisional conculsion is there are no indeed no major differences between high caliber servers, if the downstream digital processing is up to snuff. I suspect none of the dedicated 5 figure servers (Beatis, "The Beast etc.) will beat ony of my three sources by a material margin (if at all). Can't prove this without trying of course.

Quick update. Got around to extensive listening session in multi channel mode yesterday. While I the jury us still out on Pink Faun I2S versus CAPS 3.0 USB on 2 channel, on MCH (high rez), the Pink Faun I2S handily beats the AES/EBU Lynx card. There is significantly more bass. In fact, I am finally getting that "physical' sensation from bass hanging in the room, that my speakers (4 x 15" woofers going down to 10Hz) should be capable of producing. Not sure if the difference is a result of using I2S over AES/EBU or if it is the server itself (I would have to swap the cars for that, which I won't do), but it is there and quite material.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
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Hi can you keep posting 2-ch and MCH impressions please, especially against CAPS
 

prerich

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2012
246
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923
From my point of view, if you build the right "renderer," i.e. the DAC and its interface to your bits, none of this should matter. Objectively speaking, those things can only matter if the rendering device is sensitive to upstream changes. And that by definition is a sign of poor design. So I would spend my money and effort there before worrying about how the bits are served.
Agreed :D
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Hi can you keep posting 2-ch and MCH impressions please, especially against CAPS

Did a complete transfer of all 2 channel and MCH content to the av streamer and restructured my library a bit, but have not had much time to listen / watch. I'll probably do just one more CAPS to av-streamer A/B comparison before retiring the CAPS. The differences will still be small I suspect.
 

prerich

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2012
246
10
923
The upshot would be all the mega bucks servers hitting the market (there are many) are snake oil.
And this is also an excellent post!!!!
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
Thanks. Seems like a very clean, audiophile style design with dual supplies, dual PCBs, etc. Kind of strange that they keep comparing it to a PC as a competition rather than other NAS though.

Love the power management where it goes to sleep if you are not using it. Power bill can be non-trivial with a NAS that is running with its drives constantly humming.

I also like the SSD option. Once we are a generation or two down the road, I think the ideal system will be SSD with hard disk NAS as the second layer for larger library.
 

Joel

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2013
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I just had only one feedback from Lumin / Pixel Magic staff and it seems to provide a positive impact with their network streamer.
I have still some difficulties to understand what kind of benefit can provide a SSD storage when not included inside the media player.
The best option remains from my own experience a clean power supply plus optical insulation between NAS and network player.

Cheers,

Joel
 

audioblazer

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May 13, 2010
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