Ultimate bleeding edge server, NAS, cables, PS/battery,gigabit switch info repository

1wino

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Apr 6, 2013
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I've read various bits & pieces in various threads (including other forums) that discuss what guys who actually own & have tested such items, for SQ & continue to experiment, have to say-

Was hoping to put this info in one thread, so peeps like myself could strive for even higher-end results in their servers and related gear-

For example, I've read CKKeung speaking about the merits of Volent's Ben Lau's LPSs… and also the expensive Vertere USB & ethernet cables… and even extolling the virtues of gigabit switch SQ differences !

I've read about battery PSs recommendations from Elberoth, in addition to CAPS servers & a wee mention of NAS…

These are only two examples of guys who have lots of experience in the ultra high end- There are others w/ other awesome info too !

Some questions I have & ideas I'd LOVE to see covered further & more in depth for ultimate SQ:

What 'parts' of the server are the most important ? Does the RAM, CPU, OS, & especially the LPS/battery quality make a difference ?

Is a 'normal' NAS 'acceptable' or is the CAPS V4 Cortes (or similar) really worthwhile (of course in addition to the server) compared to say, a Synology ?

After one has most of the rest of their system 'together', it seems to me these 'specialty' areas can & will kick a system over the top, having read comments from these and other 'audio mountain climbers' !

Please provide more in depth info as you see fit, to help us reach audio nirvana !

Thanks,
David
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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From my point of view, if you build the right "renderer," i.e. the DAC and its interface to your bits, none of this should matter. Objectively speaking, those things can only matter if the rendering device is sensitive to upstream changes. And that by definition is a sign of poor design. So I would spend my money and effort there before worrying about how the bits are served.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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From my point of view, if you build the right "renderer," i.e. the DAC and its interface to your bits, none of this should matter. Objectively speaking, those things can only matter if the rendering device is sensitive to upstream changes. And that by definition is a sign of poor design. So I would spend my money and effort there before worrying about how the bits are served.

When I've A/Bd different servers and server systems into a DAC, this has been my experience.

Perhaps there's some expectation bias here as nothing I've read about why this or that software/server setup , etc is superior (when going into a good DAC) makes much sense to me. That and talking to Charles Hansen of Ayre and reading the comments of the inventor of JRiver, both of whom don't see why any of the added software or beefed up server options out there add anything. I'm particularly skeptical when I hear that this computer rig, LPS, or software improves imaging, high frequency purity, or something else very specific.

That all said, some of the A/Bing was blind, and I would have been happy to hear a difference.
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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All servers sound the same to me with the Lynx Hilo. I'm sure it's the same for 1000s of DACs with proper USB as Amir says. I've even measured using RMAA and the Hilo in loopback to see if I could see any change and I couldn't find any using expensive server versus standard laptop. Ive also never seen any measurement from the analog ouptut of a DAC which demonstrates a difference, much less an improvement when using a proper USB interface. There's lots of wars stories though. So, it depends on what you are looking for.
 
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1wino

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Apr 6, 2013
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Thanks for the comments so far guys…

The only thing mentioned so far I have direct experience w/, is on my i7 quad core 2.6GHz Mac Mini as server…. before & after an outboard LPS… Huge difference in SQ imo… deeper bass, deeper, wider, taller soundstage… really just better all around…

What got me to buy it, was because a few of us A/Bd a Mini w/ & w/o LPS on about 5 tracks at a buddy's place… a little less effect than at my place, but they were obvious !

David
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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From my point of view, if you build the right "renderer," i.e. the DAC and its interface to your bits, none of this should matter. Objectively speaking, those things can only matter if the rendering device is sensitive to upstream changes. And that by definition is a sign of poor design. So I would spend my money and effort there before worrying about how the bits are served.

The upshot would be all the mega bucks servers hitting the market (there are many) are snake oil.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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That would, indeed, be the upshot.

Tim
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Here are some comparisons of music servers from a non-audiophile, engineering professor. This guy is going after everyone, including the Baetis, Alon Wolf's favorite music server. If you are sensitive, don't click!

http://3beez.com/comparison/gloves_off.html

However, from a non-engineering perspective, I have always found music servers and add-on power supplies for dacs make a much better musical experience. You don't need to be blinded to tell a more quiet background or thundering bass from an additional power supply.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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From my point of view, if you build the right "renderer," i.e. the DAC and its interface to your bits, none of this should matter. Objectively speaking, those things can only matter if the rendering device is sensitive to upstream changes. And that by definition is a sign of poor design. So I would spend my money and effort there before worrying about how the bits are served.

Hi Amir,

What exactly is this and how do you judge its quality?
 

dallasjustice

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I can see how this space is confusing though. There are softwares which CAN make music sound better or, at least, different. That part of it is not "magic." For example, HQplayer's upsamping can be beneficial depending on the DAC. There's also lots of good DSP software which can greatly improve sound quality.

However, when it comes to bit perfect playback coupled with proper digital interface, there really is NO difference. I don't call anyone a liar. However, I am certain that those who claim to the contrary are simply fooling themselves, no matter how many stories I read.
 

edorr

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The more I read / think about it the more I like the appraoch of the Pink Faun A/V streamer. All standard components, except for custom linear power supply and custom (optionally multi channel) I2S audio card. I paid about $5,000, which is about $2,500 components (including 2 TB SSD and 12 TB additional storage), say $1,000 for custom components and secret sauce, and $1,500 for assembly and profit margin. How they can make any oney at this pricepoint - don't ask me. I just got a call from Fedex the unit has arrived. They also managed to ship it from the Netherlands Fedex for $100.... It will go head to head against CAPS 3, and my MCH server with Lynx card.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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There are softwares which CAN make music sound better or, at least, different.

Different is the key word. iTunes, when set to the correct sample rate of the file, is bit-perfect output. Not sure what a lot of the software out there adds to that.

As for upsampling and other schemes that change filtering, maybe that's a question of where you want it. For me, I'd just as soon leave that to the DAC, otherwise there gets to be too many variables in the chain. I want my server to have good operating software, and simply serve.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Hi Amir,

What exactly is this and how do you judge its quality?
I judge the quality by measurements. And to the performance we need to get. I just uploaded my article that I wrote on this very topic. See here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-PC-MAC-Audio-Interfacing&p=317196#post317196

Everything has to start with objective measurements. It doesn't have to end there but it needs to start there :). If a bunch of optimizations each of which is supposed to be night and day better combined don't show up in measurements, then it is a hard struggle to make case that there is something there. I have more to share on this later :).
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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However, when it comes to bit perfect playback coupled with proper digital interface, there really is NO difference. I don't call anyone a liar. However, I am certain that those who claim to the contrary are simply fooling themselves, no matter how many stories I read.
The key word there is "proper." A lot of gear is considered proper but they show sensitivity to upstream system activity including the choice of media player! I have shown some data in this regard. I am going to create a quick article on it and post it.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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I judge the quality by measurements. And to the performance we need to get. I just uploaded my article that I wrote on this very topic. See here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-PC-MAC-Audio-Interfacing&p=317196#post317196

Everything has to start with objective measurements. It doesn't have to end there but it needs to start there :). If a bunch of optimizations each of which is supposed to be night and day better combined don't show up in measurements, then it is a hard struggle to make case that there is something there. I have more to share on this later :).


Thanks, Amir. Good stuff! I have read quickly, but need to re-read at least once more.

In the meanwhile, a few questions:
- What if the network player or bridge you are using doesn't provide USB. Are you stuck with "inferior sound", or should a well-designed DAC be able to recover the clock and capably deal with information coming from the SPDIF interface and match performance of properly implemented USB? How can you tell if the physical hardware implementation in the network player or bridge is well designed or is drek? For example, despite the issues, when this reviewer got everything working, he liked things much better than his Mac. http://www.audiostream.com/content/totaldac-d1-server


- And is the UPnP serve software on the NAS all the same? For example, some swear by MinimServe / Synology combination but others poo-poo it. Is it wrong to expect that some software will buffer better or convert the file to a format that can be processed easier by the DAC, reducing computing power and producing better sound? For example, doesn't the processing required to un-compress the data from FLAC increase the computational load, which could raises the power supply noise floor, which detracts from the sound quality?

Simply, put, couldn't some UPnP software just work better than other software and provide better synergy or better sound?
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Thanks, Amir. Good stuff! I have read quickly, but need to re-read at least once more.

In the meanwhile, a few questions:
- What if the network player or bridge you are using doesn't provide USB. Are you stuck with "inferior sound", or should a well-designed DAC be able to recover the clock and capably deal with information coming from the SPDIF interface and match performance of properly implemented USB? How can you tell if the physical hardware implementation in the network player or bridge is well designed or is drek? For example, despite the issues, when this reviewer got everything working, he liked things much better than his Mac. http://www.audiostream.com/content/totaldac-d1-server
Networked systems act and work exactly like USB async. The problem they bring with them is lots of system activity in the DAC itself. Lots and lots of code is now running inside the DAC's CPU subsystem and if not impeccably isolated, it can bleed into the DAC much like we see in cheap computer motherboard sound. Indeed it says the same thing in that article:

"The totaldac d1-server is based on an 800MHz ARM based Cubox minicomputer running RTLinux (Real-Time Linux) and the MPD music player daemon."

If it is one time you don't want to brag about having a computer inside something, it is a DAC :). It goes to say the "right" thing:

"There's an integrated "digital reclocker" which accounts for a large chunk of the d1-server's price—the d1-digital reclocker is available as a stand alone device from totaldac for about $4,900 while you can pick up a Cubox 2" cube computer for around $100. "

A "reclocker" is mandatory in a network device as there is no sample accurate clock available in general computer networking to drive the DAC. The DAC will use its own clock and request data to arrive asynchronously from the network source. In that sense, there is nothing to reclock. There is only one clock and it is the master driving the DAC.

I don't know what the heck this means though:

"In order to use the reclocker, you have to run a USB cable on the back of the d1-server from the integrated minicomputer's USB Type-A output (the one on the bottom) to the USB Type-B input. This setup also allows you to use the reclocker with an external source. The reclocker uses the same asynchronous fifo memory as the d1-dual DAC and according to totaldac, "...it also has an internal clock which strongly attenuates the jitter of any digital source"."

Minicomputer??? Minicomputers went out of the business in 1980s. Embedded microcomputer is what is inside the DAC. Not sure what they are saying is being done with USB inside of a DAC driven by sources other than USB???

But answering your question, the only way to evaluate any such claims is with measurements. Words about how they clock this and that are worthless. If we are discussing engineering topics then there better be engineering proof points. Can't say reclock this and that and for the proof say how "musical" the DAC sounds.

- And is the UPnP serve software on the NAS all the same? For example, some swear by MinimServe / Synology combination but others poo-poo it. Is it wrong to expect that some software will buffer better or convert the file to a format that can be processed easier by the DAC, reducing computing power and producing better sound? For example, doesn't the processing required to un-compress the data from FLAC increase the computational load, which could raises the power supply noise floor, which detracts from the sound quality?
The biggest and only issue with UPnP servers is reliability. They cannot change the sound quality. They are at the end of a wet noodle. They can do what they want and it won't move the other end. They are sitting on a different computer, linked asynchronously to a client DAC. They simply have no ability to change fidelity.

UPnP does not support FLAC which means that the server will decompress that into PCM and send that over the wire. Yes, that increases the server's CPU but that CPU is not sitting inside the networked DAC so it cannot influence its performance. If you are getting reliable stream of music, then the server has done its job and replacing one for another will not make a difference.

Simply, put, couldn't some UPnP software just work better than other software and provide better synergy or better sound?
The only synergy is from reliability point of view. UPnP is one of those "standards" which was never tested very well. To the extent there is a server and networked client that are designed to work together, you will get more reliable operation potentially. But that is it. Changing one for the other should only be done for reliability sake, not sound fidelity.

Now, you can build a really, really bad networked player where everything from its CPU does bleeds into the DAC. In that case, yes, changing any network activity will cause its DAC to run differently. Say one server that is decompression FLAC produces pauses every 1 millisecond when it is decompressing the file and then it bursts it out on the network. That 1 KHz cadence can bleed into the DAC. But this is not a problem with the server but absolutely horrible networked DAC implementation. The server is compliant with what it is supposed to do: produce data. Its job is not to produce analog sound. It is the job of the networked DAC to produce high fidelity audio samples from what is by definition an noisy asynchronous digital audio feed. Again, measurements will tell us the competence of such designs/designers.

At high level, we must engineer products well. Only then we can (maybe :) ) dabble into secondary considerations of "how does it sound." If a networked DAC's objective measurements show it to produce different data when you change the UPnP server, you don't get to second argument of "but it sounds good to my ear." The thing is broken :). That you think it produces good sound is neither here, nor there in my book.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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Additional datapoint in this debate. I now have three high grade servers in the house - a battery powered CAPS 3.0 USB (about $3,500), a Monster Server with Lynx AES/EBU MCH card (about $4,000), and the Pink Faun A/V Streamer with I2S bridge (about $5,000). Downstream is a PS audio Directstream DAC. All testing done with 2 channel.

I just did a shootout. Here is what I found.

a/v streamer and Monster are equivalent on 44/16
CAPS 3.0 beats the a/v streamer and Moster by a small margin on 44/16.
a/v streamer beats Monster by a small margin on high rez material

The difference are splitting hair and not worth fretting over. I could happily live with all three. I will consolidate my two servers to the a/v streamer (may be keep the CAPS - not sure yet).

So provisional conculsion is there are no indeed no major differences between high caliber servers, if the downstream digital processing is up to snuff. I suspect none of the dedicated 5 figure servers (Beatis, "The Beast etc.) will beat ony of my three sources by a material margin (if at all). Can't prove this without trying of course.
 

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