Bogus Downloads!

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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As promised, I have started a thread on what I found out over the past month and a half of investigation.

To give you a little history, I had a DSP (Digital Signal Provider or Digital Content Provider) contact me saying the files we had submitted were not hi-rez. First thing I started doing was panic, thinking my equipment was to fault or I had forgotten to switch some settings in the DAW.

The files they were complaining about were solo instruments that we had mastered in DSD. I quickly went to the original file and did a spectral analysis and low and behold, I could not see anything above 18k. Well I knew this was solo instruments recorded at a lower amplitude, so I increased the gain and there it was… content above 30k. The DSP was using MusicScope software to analyze these files and I kept telling them my findings, but they were adamant that it was lower than CD quality!

I told them to check other files that we had sent them that were done on the very same day and they turned out to be true hi-rez files. Of course this was a big loud orchestra with brass instruments, so it was clearly visible on even the most rudimentary software.

The client wanted me to check to see if I got the same findings on all the files they had submitted. We had sent 2 sets of files to Naxos for distribution to 7 or 8 Content Providers, a DSD file and a 176.4 FLAC file. I downloaded 2 albums from each DSP from the US and EU in 176.4kHz FLAC. I was not prepared for what I found!

To begin with, I only checked the first track of each album to keep it simple. I ran a statistics and spectral analysis and this is what I found.
 
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Bruce B

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DSP 1 file size 263MB


DSP1-1.jpg

DSP1-2.jpg

DSP1-3.jpg


This one was the largest file size. Also there were 2 glitches (arrows) in the music. All of the other files were fine. Sound was kinda' dull and uninvolving. Content does extend past 30k. RMS about 1dB lower than original. WTF??
 
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Bruce B

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DSP 2 File size 145MB


DSP2-1.jpg

DSP2-2.jpg

DSP2-3.jpg


This one sounded much better... closer to the original file. Content only extends to 28k though. RMS 1dB lower than original.... Zero Crossings only at 2,600 ? WTF??
 
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Bruce B

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DSP 3 file size 217MB


DSP3-1.jpg

DSP3-2.jpg

DSP3-3.jpg


File exactly like the original Totally untouched! Note Zero Crossings at 28,000
 
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Bruce B

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DSP 4 file size 148MB


DSP4-1.jpg

DSP4-2.jpg

DSP4-3.jpg


This one was pretty much like DSP 2. Sound was Ok...
 
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Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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Final Analsys:

1. DSP 3 seems to be the only one holding true to the original file.
2. Whether Naxos is doing it or the individual DSP's, someone is mucking around with your files. You can see the different file sizes, which means they are using different data compression
ratios for the FLAC files.
3. Also whatever they are using is altering the sonics because of the different loudness, which is audible. You can see this by Min/Max Sample values, RMS value and such.
4. There are different filter algorithms, taking out the noise compared with the waveforms of the original/DSP 3 and the others.
5. I’d also have DSP 1 pull that file and correct the glitch

I work my a$$ off trying to provide consumers with the best available downloads possible. I can't believe all my hard work has been screwed up by these a$$-hats.
 

astrotoy

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May 24, 2010
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Hi Bruce, looks very weird. What is a DSP in your posts? I thought that is a Digital Sound Processor. It seems like in your first post, this is a person or company? I looked up in wiki and there is also a Demand Side Platform - related to advertising.

Thanks, Larry
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Thanks, for taking all the effort to do all this work Bruce!

This was something I questioned David Chesky many years ago. In the early days, as I was one of the few manufacturers demo-ing at CES with a music server, David would come visit me the day before the show started with a USB stick of tracks to demo. The first year, he brought a track that was awesome and I played it many times during the show. A year later, I decided that I wanted the whole album and bought and paid for the download from HDTracks. It sounded nothing like the track that David gave me.

When I asked David, he swore up and down that he gave me exactly the same files that were being sold. I still have that first track he gave me, and the subsequent download I bought. I'll see if I have time to do some "cowboy analysis".
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
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Bruce,
one big consideration just to add is that DSD mastered files converted to PCM will have ultrasonic noise-swell usually starting around 30khz and then increase in energy up to around 45kish.
From a dBFS perspective it usually peaks up to around -80 to -85 dBFS (going by memory), I can check historically some of Keith Howard/Paul Miller hirez analysis to be sure if needed.

Cheers
Orb
 

Asamel

Well-Known Member
Jan 22, 2012
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Philly
Bruce, I always thought there was something bogus about you. After all a machine can do what you do.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
Bruce,
one big consideration just to add is that DSD mastered files converted to PCM will have ultrasonic noise-swell usually starting around 30khz and then increase in energy up to around 45kish.
From a dBFS perspective it usually peaks up to around -80 to -85 dBFS (going by memory), I can check historically some of Keith Howard/Paul Miller hirez analysis to be sure if needed.

Cheers
Orb

In single rate DSD, the noise actually starts much lower, closer to the audible bandwidth. Most of the time you can see the music content over the noise if the amplitude is loud enough.
 

MadFloyd

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May 30, 2010
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Wow, very interesting stuff. I wish the various DSP's were identified but I can understand how you might not want to do that...
 

Andre Marc

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Mar 14, 2012
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Final Analsys:

1. DSP 3 seems to be the only one holding true to the original file.
2. Whether Naxos is doing it or the individual DSP's, someone is mucking around with your files. You can see the different file sizes, which means they are using different data compression
ratios for the FLAC files.
3. Also whatever they are using is altering the sonics because of the different loudness, which is audible. You can see this by Min/Max Sample values, RMS value and such.
4. There are different filter algorithms, taking out the noise compared with the waveforms of the original/DSP 3 and the others.
5. I’d also have DSP 1 pull that file and correct the glitch

I work my a$$ off trying to provide consumers with the best available downloads possible. I can't believe all my hard work has been screwed up by these a$$-hats.

Your efforts and this thread are VERY much appreciated!
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
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I always wondered why in The Absolute Sound reviews of high-res files that sometimes the reviewer would say the file from 'A' sounds better than the file from 'B'. My reaction was why if they are selling the same file from the source don't the files sound the same? It appears what you are saying is that the online vendors are somehow changing the file before selling it.
 

Andre Marc

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Mar 14, 2012
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I always wondered why in The Absolute Sound reviews of high-res files that sometimes the reviewer would say the file from 'A' sounds better than the file from 'B'. My reaction was why if they are selling the same file from the source don't the files sound the same? It appears what you are saying is that the online vendors are somehow changing the file before selling it.

Yes, but in TAS they only compared HDT and Superhirez, neither which tamper with the files in any way. I confirmed this.

FYI, the credibility of the person making those claims is in deep question..he made several erroneous statements, for instance saying there were two different masterings of the Zep albums being sold,
and several other misstatements.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
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Yes, but in TAS they only compared HDT and Superhirez, neither which tamper with the files in any way. I confirmed this.

FYI, the credibility of the person making those claims is in deep question..he made several erroneous statements, for instance saying there were two different masterings of the Zep albums being sold, and several other misstatements.

LOL. The Led Zeppelin review was in my mind when I wrote that.
 

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