Do you hear what I hear???

DaveyF · May 1, 2015

With all the discussion on various topics about a) the quality of music b) the quality of recordings c) the ringing/non-ringing of tweets d) the quality and quantity of bass and room sizes, etc....The question becomes...DO WE ALL HEAR THE SAME AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, DO WE ATTRIBUTE WHAT WE HEAR AS PLEASURABLE TO US??

IME, we absolutely do hear similarly, BUT we have different pleasure senses that in all of us are triggered in a different manner.
As a musician, my training and experience with live instruments isn't going to be the same as those who have never picked up an instrument in their life. My ear is more attuned to some things and my expectations are probably different than a non-musician a'phile. OTOH, what is it that allows one a'phile to complain about a specific genre of music and another to enjoy same....thoughts???????

asiufy · May 2, 2015

DaveyF,

It's pretty clear to me that people don't hear similarly.
I've been in rooms where people would come to me and say "that's too bright". Then I'd have people say "too dark", same song, same system, same room.
How can one person hear brightness, yet another person fail to hear it, AT ALL?
I guess all these discussions come down to this, the biological/physical aspect of our hearing.
You're a musician, but I can show you 10 other musicians who'll dispute your views on how a "live instrument" should sound. I know, because I've met a couple of them, and they hardly ever agree among themselves

alexandre

DaveyF · May 2, 2015

asiufy said:
DaveyF,

It's pretty clear to me that people don't hear similarly.
I've been in rooms where people would come to me and say "that's too bright". Then I'd have people say "too dark", same song, same system, same room.
How can one person hear brightness, yet another person fail to hear it, AT ALL?
I guess all these discussions come down to this, the biological/physical aspect of our hearing.
You're a musician, but I can show you 10 other musicians who'll dispute your views on how a "live instrument" should sound. I know, because I've met a couple of them, and they hardly ever agree among themselves

alexandre

Alexandre, I think we are saying similar things. I do believe that we pretty much all do hear the same. BUT we interpret what he hear VERY differently. One person states it is "bright"...because by his definition the sound is "bright", the other person may say what he hears is "dark"..his interpretation!
BTW, it is my experience that most....most, pro musicians generally agree as to what the particular instrument they play -should sound like.

JackD201 · May 2, 2015

I will never hear what you hear Davey. I'm pretty sure however that I would be able to identify with the impressions left by what you heard.

Vincent Kars · May 2, 2015

Hearing is translating the movement of air molecules into an electrical signal to the brain.
As we know there will be slight differences between individuals.
Make an equal loudness contour or a frequency response and there will be individual variations.
A well-known fact is age related hearing loss.
Today I don’t hear things I could hear in the past.

However this is nothing compared with our perception.
We don’t hear sec, that is an autonomous process, we interpreted what we are hearing all of the time.
It is our perception that makes the big difference, not the individual variations in our hearing capabilities.

APP · May 2, 2015

Perception

Yes that is very true.
And if you have any blind friends you will never stop being amazed at how far there hearing is developed.
And on perception this is what the highly respected audiophile label Sound Liaison write regarding their comparison file test.

Be careful: If you start with A, and move down through B and C ending with D, your mind will remember the ''Blueprint'' of the higher resolution file, making it difficult to hear the difference even when finally listening to the MP3 file. Don't be frustrated if you can't hear a difference at first. Hearing is as individual as taste but hearing is also something which can be acquired, like the taste of good wine.

link to complete text; http://www.soundliaison.com/

Johnny Vinyl · May 2, 2015

Three a'philes sit and listen to my system, listening to the same song at the same time. One will say it's "Warm", the other "Neutral" and the last one "Analytical". (BTW...my system is on the warm side of neutral). Why do all three interpret what they hear so differently? IMO there can only be one answer. They're not listening, but comparing mine to the sound they are familiar with in their own systems.

asiufy · May 2, 2015

DaveyF said:
Alexandre, I think we are saying similar things. I do believe that we pretty much all do hear the same. BUT we interpret what he hear VERY differently. One person states it is "bright"...because by his definition the sound is "bright", the other person may say what he hears is "dark"..his interpretation!
BTW, it is my experience that most....most, pro musicians generally agree as to what the particular instrument they play -should sound like.

DaveyF,

Yes, kinda the same... But our "perception" of bright is made up because our hearing (physically) has determined so. Same as speakers have a response over frequency, so does our hearing. And if for some reason, our "graph" is titled toward the mid-range (like a friend of mine), you wouldn't be able to stand anything with a boosted mid-range, as that'll be just too much. This is actually my friend's case. In the end, it becomes a preference, his preference, but that is dictated by his response to particular frequencies (or range of frequencies).

So it's two things operating here: our actual hearing (body/ear) plus our preferences. You might hear more HF than some, but you might actually enjoy that excess, while some others might have the same HF response in hearing, but actually don't enjoy that much...

alexandre

asiufy · May 2, 2015

Johnny Vinyl said:
Three a'philes sit and listen to my system, listening to the same song at the same time. One will say it's "Warm", the other "Neutral" and the last one "Analytical". (BTW...my system is on the warm side of neutral). Why do all three interpret what they hear so differently? IMO there can only be one answer. They're not listening, but comparing mine to the sound they are familiar with in their own systems.

Johnny,

You're presuming they think their own system is neutral, or at least that they believe it is

The reason they interpret in 3 different ways is because their hearing is tilted in different directions, so in the end, the brain emphasizes certain things that seem to be in excess, while downplaying others.

Since we have 3 "test cases", it'd be fun to have them go through a hearing test, and measure their response to 20Hz-20KHz, and see how that correlates to what they just told you about your system

alexandre

esldude · May 2, 2015

tomelex said:
Guys and gals, we do not even hear what we hear.

Listen to the first 20 seconds of a track, then immediately listen to it again for 20 seconds, then immediately listen again for 20 seconds, guess which rendition you heard the most in?

The first time it sounded good. The second time I heard even more of what was in it. The third time it was familiar. The 4th time it doesn't seem to quite be digging out details like say the second time. Something is wrong and I might need to order a better DAC or maybe upgrade cables.

TIC.

DaveyF · May 2, 2015

At this point, I would like to ask the members to describe what in their words is the definition and meaning of 1) Warm 2) Neutral 3) Analytical 4) Dark and 5) Bright...and any other audio term that we throw around. The vernacular is important to understand, IMO. Perhaps, we are NOT all on the same page when it comes to this...we shall see

Hi-FiGuy · May 2, 2015

Noise floor is one I am very interested hearing your thoughts/description of.

In signal theory, the noise floor is the measure of the signal created from the sum of all the noise sources and unwanted signals within a measurement system, where noise is defined as any signal other than the one being monitored. (Wikipedia)

Phelonious Ponk · May 2, 2015

Johnny Vinyl said:
Three a'philes sit and listen to my system, listening to the same song at the same time. One will say it's "Warm", the other "Neutral" and the last one "Analytical". (BTW...my system is on the warm side of neutral). Why do all three interpret what they hear so differently? IMO there can only be one answer. They're not listening, but comparing mine to the sound they are familiar with in their own systems.

This. Oddly enough, though, listeners seem to get past comparing everything to their experience (their own system) when comparing/contrasting systems directly, and blindly. And in these tests, which have been discussed here before, run by Toole and Olive over decades, first at the research center in Canada, then at Harman International, very strong majorities of listeners preferred reproduction that was more neutral. Not someone's personal definition of neutral, but reproduction that changed the recording the least.

But obviously, to anyone who participates in audiophile forums, once people are removed from the direct, blind comparisons, they have a remarkable capacity for believing that their preference, regardless of accuracy, is closer to reality. We're ultimately emotional and perceptual animals, not logical ones.

Tim

JackD201 · May 2, 2015

The brain is sometimes called a pattern recognition engine. That's supposedly how perception works in a nutshell. Personally I believe we all reference the sum total of our experiences not just our personal systems. If we did then we'd all be happy but also think anybody else's system sucks in comparison.

amirm · May 2, 2015

I think the main reason we get different interpretations is because the answers are not given after the exam. That is, whoever said the system is "warm" is not then told, here is the proof that you were right or wrong. His view is accepted as well as any other observation. Even if as said, it is completely at odds with the other person's observation.

Without proper feedback loop, we can't calibrate our senses in this regard and continue to arrive as mis-assessments of audio systems.

This is a complex issue. I can listen to the same system, with the same content and walk away with a different impression of it being bright or not. I suspect everyone else has experienced the same.

DaveyF · May 3, 2015

amirm said:
I think the main reason we get different interpretations is because the answers are not given after the exam. That is, whoever said the system is "warm" is not then told, here is the proof that you were right or wrong. His view is accepted as well as any other observation. Even if as said, it is completely at odds with the other person's observation.

Without proper feedback loop, we can't calibrate our senses in this regard and continue to arrive as mis-assessments of audio systems.

This is a complex issue. I can listen to the same system, with the same content and walk away with a different impression of it being bright or not. I suspect everyone else has experienced the same.

Perhaps, the question should be what are we using as our "reference". I try and use the sound of UANMPLIFIED instruments in a "live" setting. Others, use the sound of AMPLIFIED instruments in a "live" setting....and still others use no reference at all. Instead, seemingly preferring to use whatever happens to sound good to them. ( BTW, I'm not advocating for any particular reference here). Therefore, I guess one could ask what is the "proper feedback loop"? Might be a controversial subject...or maybe not??

amirm · May 3, 2015

That's of course another big problem altogether since we are listening to a recording which may have been EQed to a completely different curve than we think. What live sounded like is not something we can determine for a specific recording.

It is remarkable how much technology and money we have thrown at audio, yet the simplest thing of recording the signature of the recording/mixing room is not part of it. With video, everything is calibrated to a standard so we know what red is supposed to look like. With audio, we don't have a clue. I explained this in my recent article on target response curves: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Room Equalization/Room Equalization.html

It is the most remarkable thing in how we talk about "high fidelity" yet no attempt is made to maintain fidelity to the source. We have a watercolor painting in hand, thinking it is a photograph of the source!

DaveyF · May 3, 2015

amirm said:
That's of course another big problem altogether since we are listening to a recording which may have been EQed to a completely different curve than we think. What live sounded like is not something we can determine for a specific recording.

It is remarkable how much technology and money we have thrown at audio, yet the simplest thing of recording the signature of the recording/mixing room is not part of it. With video, everything is calibrated to a standard so we know what red is supposed to look like. With audio, we don't have a clue. I explained this in my recent article on target response curves: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Room Equalization/Room Equalization.html

It is the most remarkable thing in how we talk about "high fidelity" yet no attempt is made to maintain fidelity to the source. We have a watercolor painting in hand, thinking it is a photograph of the source!

I do think IF one is listening to a recording of a piano or a wind or stringed instrument that is NOT amplified, we can remember what this instrument is supposed to sound like. I know when I hear a piano, I can pretty much tell whether it is live or not. I'm pretty sure most of us have this innate ability...now I do agree that the exact sound of the piano in question when it was recorded may be different to our expectation. After all, a Steinway does NOT sound like a Baldwin ( usually

) BUT we all know the sound of the 'real' from the reproduced.

Do you hear what I hear???

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