almost free and 4 inches......the final 1%

marty · Apr 28, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
.....or maybe the final 2%, or the final 5%......no matter.....the final step.

if someone mentions DSP I'm going to puke......well not really.....but you get the idea. they first need to come and hear what I've done, then show me a system with DSP that can match this.....and i will consider it.

so for almost free and 4 inches I've got to my personal musical reproduction mountaintop. (and my new dart preamp is still a few weeks away)

Mike,
Two things. First, you don't NEED DSP. Your frequency response seems relatively flat in the outstanding room you have built but more importantly, your subs are immediately adjacent to your mains and that would be the most common alternate reason for using DSP. I had a really nice conversation w Gary Koh about this at the Dragon party. Gary believes you only need to correct the timing errors between woofer columns and mains when the difference in distance between the two creates a timing delay of more than 11 msec. (Gary thinks if its 11 msec or less, the brain can integrate that time difference perceptually without consequences.) You don't have this issue since the drivers are all in the same plane. To be honest the distance between the subs and mains on the Dragons at the party was about 6-7 feet, which in my experience creates a need to retard the mains by about 25-30 msec. I believe there would be a real benefit of DSP in that application. I think Gary is considering revisiting this issue for his particular system, but for yours, I really don't think there is a need.

Second, may I just say "damn it man, you mean I gotta come back and hear your system again now that you've discovered the true sweet spot?" Ok, sign me up.....
Marty

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

dallasjustice said:
The best things in this hobby are free or close to free.

Maybe you want to puke at the sight of a microphone because it's being used wrong?

microphones have their valid uses for specific (frequency response) things. over the years they have been used in my room for system building.

rbbert · Apr 28, 2015

What is the fabric you used, and/or what are its absorption characteristics?

dallasjustice · Apr 28, 2015

When comes to integrating subs, that's a huge oversimplification.

marty said:
Mike,
Two things. First, you don't NEED DSP. Your frequency response seems relatively flat in the outstanding room you have built but more importantly, your subs are immediately adjacent to your mains and that would be the most common alternate reason for using DSP. I had a really nice conversation w Gary Koh about this at the Dragon party. Gary believes you only need to correct the timing errors between woofer columns and mains when the difference in distance between the two creates a timing delay of more than 11 msec. (Gary thinks if its 11 msec or less, the brain can integrate that time difference perceptually without consequences.) You don't have this issue since the drivers are all in the same plane. To be honest the distance between the subs and mains on the Dragons at the party was about 6-7 feet, which in my experience creates a need to retard the mains by about 25-30 msec. I believe there would be a real benefit of DSP in that application. I think Gary is considering revisiting this issue for his particular system, but for yours, I really don't think there is a need.

Second, may I just say "damn it man, you mean I gotta come back and hear your system again now that you've discovered the true sweet spot?" Ok, sign me up.....
Marty

marty · Apr 28, 2015

dallasjustice said:
When comes to integrating subs, that's a huge oversimplification.

Of course, but in my experience, its the largest elephant in the room.

dallasjustice · Apr 28, 2015

marty said:
Of course, but in my experience, its the largest elephant in the room.

Getting the perfect delay only matters within a range, as Gary says. I agree with that. But using precise delay so the phase is right at the crossover is mega. Of course, crossovers matter too. So, there are really 3 moving parts. It's not easy and a microphone is required.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

rbbert said:
What is the fabric you used, and/or what are its absorption characteristics?

it is from Mayer contract fabrics. Symphony 1703 Bronze, 100% polyester....and was what I used from the bass traps installed in my room back in 2004. as far as I know it is no longer available. I called Mayer in Indianapolis and they had no record of it remaining.

the other fabric I used was a synthetic velvet suede material.....which also seemed to work well.

the idea is to find a fabric that has some texture, but not too much weight or padding. you simply want to cut reflections, but not absorb the mid-range too much.

I was able to find more of the original fabric so i'm having the upholstery shop make finished pieces for all the spots so they will all match together and match the rear built in bass traps that exist in the room.

the closer you sit to the surface you treat, the more critical the type of fabric you use.

the synthetic suede/velvet was easy to work with since it did not fray on the edges so it was easy to cut straight, sits flat, and looks neat pinned up.

jap · Apr 28, 2015

Which made a bigger improvement, the "almost free and 4 inches" or the Entreq grounding box/cables?

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

jap said:
Which made a bigger improvement, the "almost free and 4 inches" or the Entreq grounding box/cables?

not close at all, totally different degrees of effect. the elimination of the reflective hash from the first reflection treatment and moving the listening position into the ideal were likely the most significant thing I've ever done except my speaker upgrade.

transforming the system fundamentally in how it communicates the musical content. like removing a rev-limiter or even an anchor from a F1 car.

the Entreq is a subtle but clear 'nice' enhancement. like upgrading a cartridge or amplifier from Mk1 to Mk2....plus maybe an improved power cord. not to be scoffed at unless you are the 'skoffing' type.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

marty said:
Mike,
Two things. First, you don't NEED DSP. Your frequency response seems relatively flat in the outstanding room you have built but more importantly, your subs are immediately adjacent to your mains and that would be the most common alternate reason for using DSP. I had a really nice conversation w Gary Koh about this at the Dragon party. Gary believes you only need to correct the timing errors between woofer columns and mains when the difference in distance between the two creates a timing delay of more than 11 msec. (Gary thinks if its 11 msec or less, the brain can integrate that time difference perceptually without consequences.) You don't have this issue since the drivers are all in the same plane. To be honest the distance between the subs and mains on the Dragons at the party was about 6-7 feet, which in my experience creates a need to retard the mains by about 25-30 msec. I believe there would be a real benefit of DSP in that application. I think Gary is considering revisiting this issue for his particular system, but for yours, I really don't think there is a need.

thanks Marty. I agree.

Second, may I just say "damn it man, you mean I gotta come back and hear your system again now that you've discovered the true sweet spot?" Ok, sign me up.....
Marty

you'd be welcome to return anytime. the sweet spot is remarkably better

LL21 · Apr 28, 2015

Great thread...these things can be hard to understand. That is, hard to understand until something akin to this has happened, and then it becomes very understandable. So i am appreciate that you took the time to post...for me, this is the kind of stuff in enjoy reading. I have been witness to a few subtle changes that have made big differences, and in a room as painstakingly crated as yours, i can imagine what a few well conceived changes can make. Congrats and enjoy.

I may even come back to this, and ask for some broader advice at some point.

Jazzhead · Apr 28, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
not close at all, totally different degrees of effect. the elimination of the reflective hash from the first reflection treatment and moving the listening position into the ideal were likely the most significant thing I've ever done except my speaker upgrade.

transforming the system fundamentally in how it communicates the musical content. like removing a rev-limiter or even an anchor from a F1 car.

the Entreq is a subtle but clear 'nice' enhancement. like upgrading a cartridge or amplifier from Mk1 to Mk2....plus maybe an improved power cord. not to be scoffed at unless you are the 'skoffing' type.

Are you Silver Tellus only . The Atlantis TellUS is worth a go if so . Major gains to be had .

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

Jazzhead said:
Are you Silver Tellus only . The Atlantis TellUS is worth a go if so . Major gains to be had .

thank you for the thought.

and yes; I use the Silver Tellus with 2 Eartha Atlantis cables to my preamp, and 2 Eartha Apollo cables to my digital.

I have no doubt that there is more incremental gains down the Entreq pathway should I elect to pursue it. I certainly like what it's done so far. no doubt that the additional performance level of my system as described in this thread would more fully uncover those additional positive Entreq steps from the Atlantic Tellus. will I take that further? doubtful. maybe when these recent gains have settled in i'll have the hunger to try more stuff, but maybe not.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 28, 2015

LL21 said:
Great thread...these things can be hard to understand. That is, hard to understand until something akin to this has happened, and then it becomes very understandable. So i am appreciate that you took the time to post...for me, this is the kind of stuff in enjoy reading. I have been witness to a few subtle changes that have made big differences, and in a room as painstakingly crated as yours, i can imagine what a few well conceived changes can make. Congrats and enjoy.

I may even come back to this, and ask for some broader advice at some point.

thanks Lloyd.

sometimes curiosity gets rewarded....I feel lucky to have stumbled onto some useful things.

GaryProtein · Apr 28, 2015

I have to say I am in agreement with Frantz. Everybody notices the changes (I don't mean improvements) that the system owners make when they change things in their room or equipment that the owners believe are monumental. Moving a chair four inches in a large room making a monumental difference means you require a halo ring to hold your head in position as you sit in your chair. Sometimes I lean back, other times a bit forward, it's more than a four inch range, and the top of the chair back better not be any higher than the listener's shoulders. The head must be totally free in space. No head rests allowed.

Last time I was there, Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Powell Hall, Symphony Center, Disney Hall and Atlanta Symphony Hall all sounded a little different. One was not right and the others, wrong. As far as imaging is concerned, in a concert hall, you CAN'T pinpoint exactly where that solo violinist is sitting if you close your eyes. The acoustics of the hall simply will not let you do it and while all halls have areas of bad seats, there isn't only one sweet spot.

Your system is wonderful. These little tweaks are just changes that slightly alter the sound. After a while, many people will find something that "needs" to be changed--just like you did with this room alteration. There is no end to this. All the changes people make are not necessarily improvements--just changes.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 29, 2015

GaryProtein said:
I have to say I am in agreement with Frantz. Everybody notices the changes (I don't mean improvements) that the system owners make when they change things in their room or equipment that the owners believe are monumental. Moving a chair four inches in a large room making a monumental difference means you require a halo ring to hold your head in position as you sit in your chair. Sometimes I lean back, other times a bit forward, it's more than a four inch range, and the top of the chair back better not be any higher than the listener's shoulders. The head must be totally free in space. No head rests allowed.

Last time I was there, Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Powell Hall, Symphony Center, Disney Hall and Atlanta Symphony Hall all sounded a little different. One was not right and the others, wrong. As far as imaging is concerned, in a concert hall, you CAN'T pinpoint exactly where that solo violinist is sitting if you close your eyes. The acoustics of the hall simply will not let you do it and while all halls have areas of bad seats, there isn't only one sweet spot.

Your system is wonderful. These little tweaks are just changes that slightly alter the sound. After a while, many people will find something that "needs" to be changed--just like you did with this room alteration. There is no end to this. All the changes people make are not necessarily improvements--just changes.

ok; let me help you to understand.

there is a sequence involved here. first there was a series of treatments that one by one eliminated/reduced first reflections from a huge/tall speaker that projects lots of energy in every direction, in a room that is very live by design. by far the most significant single treatment was the drop ceiling right above half way between the listening position and the speaker tower. previous to these treatments, moving the chair forward subjected the listener to more immediate reflected hash due to the overhang drop ceiling directly above the listener. which was why I had (unconsciously) moved my chair back from where the speaker designer had put it a year previously. as I had previously increased SPL's it was better farther back (less ceiling effect....which I had not realized was happening).

the speakers and signal path are very very detailed and dynamic. so the upside of clearing up the hash is quite high and a big step forward in presentation and sonic balance.

so after doing that control of the first reflections moving the listening position forward into it's proper position made a significant difference. assigning a relative value of these changes would require considerable experience with the previous situation.

believe what you want. be skeptical. but hopefully you understand more clearly what happened.

as far as the significance of 4 inches forward I'm not going to try and convince you. you would have to experience it. there is a reason you laser align speakers, and laser level them. everything matters. and the greater the capability of your room and system the more everything matters.

and sitting now in that proper position my head does not need to be in a vice. the 'magic' area of ideal holographic imaging is reasonable size. but there is a definite clear advantage to where I am verses 4 inches back and this is the fully immersive musical experience I wanted.

how your system reacts to your degree of movement does not project to what other listeners might experience. you have dipoles which project sound differently than dynamic speakers.

microstrip · Apr 29, 2015

LL21 said:
Great thread...these things can be hard to understand. That is, hard to understand until something akin to this has happened, and then it becomes very understandable. So i am appreciate that you took the time to post...for me, this is the kind of stuff in enjoy reading. I have been witness to a few subtle changes that have made big differences, and in a room as painstakingly crated as yours, i can imagine what a few well conceived changes can make. Congrats and enjoy.

I may even come back to this, and ask for some broader advice at some point.

No LLoyd, it is not hard to understand and accept, even for those who did not experience it, once we know the stereo fundamentals. But once we understand it we should realize that at the level Mike is addressing there is no possible "broader advice". Only a friendly and enjoyable exchange of experiences and individual views is possible at this level.

Please google the conjunction of these two sentences: "two channel stereo" and "is not a system" https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=%22stereo+is+not+a+system%22&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl#hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=%22two+channel+stereo%22+%22is+not+a+system%22+

Back to my WBF sabbatical leave ...

Bobvin · Apr 29, 2015

Goddammit!

I am in an unholy place right now. We've freed up the budget to redo the listening space, and I've spoken to a couple folks in the room design / treatment world. I've watched with facination the evolution of Mike's room, even wondering what-the-hell is up with the fabric on the walls of Mike's space when reading of the three amigos.

But I am conflicted as to where the hell to start. I tried Rives, paid them a deposit, only to lose it when they closed up shop. I can go to the studs, rebuild walls to create more symmetry, but have some constaints to due load bearing walls and other features I don't want to mess with. I want a great room, but also need to maintain the gestalt of the whole house, don't want to put a uber modern aesthetic into our "lodge" tpye design. And where I have a window that'll always be between the speakers, I actually want it bigger because when we cut the trees a perfect view of Mt. Hood will be dead center between the speakers.

Now add that the sonic picture can change adding a wee bit of fabric -- argh!

There doesn't seem to be a one-stop shop. I apparently need an architect, acoustician, and interior designer, not to mention contractors to do the work, an electrician, and probably several nights of heavy drinking!

I've seen pictures of amazing home theater environments (Paradise Theater) but with very, very large price tags.

Rhetorically, where the hell does one begin? In reality, Mike, expect a pm. I was in Seattle briefly yesterday, and need to revisit in a couple weeks, perhaps I can make room for a visit if you'll have me?

Bobvin · Apr 29, 2015

And really tangentially related, I visited with a few audio buddies Monday evening for a little listening event. I have to admit between the speakers was the most intesting diffusor I've ever seen. Good sonically or not would take some work to find out, but damn if it doesn't give something intersting to look at while listening.

jap · Apr 29, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
not close at all, totally different degrees of effect. the elimination of the reflective hash from the first reflection treatment and moving the listening position into the ideal were likely the most significant thing I've ever done except my speaker upgrade.

transforming the system fundamentally in how it communicates the musical content. like removing a rev-limiter or even an anchor from a F1 car.

the Entreq is a subtle but clear 'nice' enhancement. like upgrading a cartridge or amplifier from Mk1 to Mk2....plus maybe an improved power cord. not to be scoffed at unless you are the 'skoffing' type.

Thanks for the information.

I tried an Entreq Silver Tellus and Apollo cables in my system, the effect was indeed subtle.

almost free and 4 inches......the final 1%

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