almost free and 4 inches......the final 1%

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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.....or maybe the final 2%, or the final 5%......no matter.....the final step.

I built a full blown dedicated room now 11 years ago. I've made a number of changes to the original design over these many years, always getting closer to the ideal I've chased. I added a front set of RPG Skyline diffusers 7 years ago. I removed huge front corner bass traps and reinforced the room boundaries 5 years ago. I added side and ceiling diffusers then too. I closed up 2/3rdsof the ceiling bass traps 4 years ago. I figured I was done with the room.

I added the Equi=tech isolation transformer wall panel, and upgraded my duplex outlets 4 years ago. power grid all ok.

I've upgraded my speakers and amplifiers 2 years ago to my view of the ultimate......still waiting for that ultimate preamp.....maybe another 30 days. I'm completely satisfied that my sources are all top notch, or at least my view of what that might be.

I've got all the software I could want in all the formats I have an interest in.

but I was still not 100% satisfied with the performance. the system was 100% satisfying to listen to and I was not frustrated or anything like that. but I felt that there was more I should be hearing. I had visited a couple of rooms which had more apparent detail and imaging, and while I preferred my overall musical equation, those experiences convinced me that there was more to find from my system.

for a few years I had been looking at the first reflection areas in my room and wondered if those were a problem. my previous opinion had been that since my room was quite large and the reflection times were so long that logically those areas should not be a problem. and I was always afraid of adding diffusion or absorption and messing up the tonal balance or losing energy. a few friends recently had done full room treatments with some current rave treatments and torn them out when they realized they had lost the musical flow and tonal fire. and yet.....what if? 3 years ago I had thought of adding some RPG wood surface diffusion to these areas and priced it out; it came to $17k for what I wanted. and I was again concerned that I would throw off the tonal balance. my mind went back and forth.

I knew what happened when I tried some Navajo carpets on the walls; it sucked out the mid range. so I could not do much. the room was too sensitive to do that.

I considered I did not want to dampen the room at all or change the tonality. I just wanted to knock down the first reflections. what if I just put some cloth over the first refection points?

so one Saturday afternoon a little over month ago I decided to dive in. I went upstairs and found some left over material from my original fabric covers of my bass traps from the room construction. I measured and found I had enough to treat the drop ceiling between the speakers and listening position, and the side rounded diffuser on either side of the Skyline diffusers between my speakers. I had to go to the hardware store to buy some push pins, grabbed my wife's fabric scissors, and I dragged out the ladder. 3 hours later I had cloth covering the drop ceiling (22" x 60" on each side) and the sides of the diffusers (36" x 89" on each side).

have you ever tried to pin fabric to a 10' tall hardwood ceiling? i used a combination of double-backed Velcro and push pins. my neck still hurts.

but i got it done. and listened.

a whole different system resulted. I could not believe it......or rather I believed it but could not believe it took me so long to figure it out. lots more detail.....more relaxed presentation and more full bodied placement of images in the soundstage.....much improved vocals.....pianos and violins were magical. and oh the tone!

this performance had always been there; but it had been covered up by the reflected hash from the first reflections. and prior to this treatment; when I raised the volume there would be an increase in the hash and it caused the system to sound hard and edgy. and especially the sweet spot was effected by this as it was closest to that area of drop ceiling I treated. and as always; you don't recognize distortion until it's removed. and part of the trick is not losing good content along with ridding yourself of distortion.

so I went thru a few days of listening to all my reference cuts and was living large. then I started to think if those areas resulted in such a dramatic change, why not other first reflection areas? my bass towers prevent first reflection of the near wall from the main towers; however, the opposite main tower can interact with the opposite wall. so I went to a fabric store and found some velour fabric with some texture and cut out some 72" pieces to treat three flat surfaces on each side wall. boom; better vocals and more solid images.

ok, if this worked what else? I looked and saw the round 10 foot long surface above and below the front diffuser. right at the floor and right at the ceiling. could first reflections bounce off the ceiling or floor and do harm? only one way to find out. I had some black thin foam fabric I'd bought at the fabric store. I quickly cut out only a 6' long piece for the upper and lower rounded areas and pinned them up. and listened. better; vocals better. everything a little more focused.

I've always listened to music with the pleated window coverings up. many times i had closed them and listened but could never hear a difference. but that reflected hash had covered up other detail; what if now that i was hearing much more detail that those window coverings could make a difference? i lowered them and listened. better; more body and focus. not huge but a small step there to be enjoyed.

i imagine other small things will present themselves over time to be tweaked. but now it was so easy to hear the smallest change.

and all through this process I had paid very close attention to the tonality and energy levels. were there any trade-offs? in a word, hell no. in fact; every step came with greater dynamics and bass articulation. almost like the reflections had dampened things and I had released the music.

I had spent years and years doing all these things, pushing against this barrier of reflection, and in a week of messing around spending less than $100 on some fabric remnants and push pins I had broke the code. a new system. wow.

my opinion is that I was right to not do too much. don't overthink it. you are simply trying to knock down the reflections and not to mess with the overall balance.

but I was not completely done. for a few weeks I had been in musical bliss. the Tres Amigos visited and heard what I had done. I'd not made a big deal about it. but it was a very big deal. then this past weekend I had other visitors who were very familiar with my system. they were blown away by how it now performed. but they thought it could be even better......something still missing. but why? eventually they asked a question? was I sitting at the equilateral triangle point? I said sure. then we measured. I was 4 inches back too far. we moved the listening position 4 inches forward and there it was.

the last little bit. vocals crazy good. super holographic imaging. (insert over the top phrase here). i have only listened to redbook since i did this step, and i am in hog heaven. the music is just so profound. after the previous steps of the last month this last step is almost too much.

this was yesterday morning.

20 years of chasing my musical ideal and I'm now listening to it.

I have been thinking about whether to post this since it will result in all sorts of reactions. do i need to get into all this stuff, how do i know i did the right thing? why didn't i use this product or that product? how does it measure before and after? blah, blah, blah.

if someone mentions DSP I'm going to puke......well not really.....but you get the idea. they first need to come and hear what I've done, then show me a system with DSP that can match this.....and i will consider it.

maybe someone will be helped by my experience?

so for almost free and 4 inches I've got to my personal musical reproduction mountaintop. (and my new dart preamp is still a few weeks away:D)

YMMV, only my 2 cents, and all that stuff.
 
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XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Pictures Mike? :D
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi Mike

I hope you did all this while your room was as cold as it could be otherwise there's a greater chance the fabric will droop later.

Congratulations on the new found performance. Way to go!
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Hi Mike

I hope you did all this while your room was as cold as it could be otherwise there's a greater chance the fabric will droop later.

Congratulations on the new found performance. Way to go!

thanks Jack.

I have HVAC that keeps the temp in the 68 degree to 75 degree range 100% of the time. I did reinforce the Velcro double back tape with pins. a corner did droop before I added the pins.

the plan is at some point to replace the pinned up fabric with something professionally applied. I wanted to live with it before I have something applied to my nice wood cabinet finish with glue.

but no hurry as it's not my living room and I listen in dim light. and so far all visitors were ok with it. it looks 'ok'.
 

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
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The new Dart preamp is always a few weeks away ;)

I have been in Mike's room many, many times and can attest that his journey has been more of a roller coaster than linear ride. The room was always impressive, the host the epitome of graciousness but the music didn't always grab me. Oh it was always spectacular in a hi fi sort of way, but it rarely moved my soul.

I admit to being a little dubious when Mike wanted me to visit a couple of weeks ago and listen to the latest change. I have heard many changes to Mike's system; and oft times, to my ear, they were not always beneficial. But I was flabbergasted, gobsmacked [insert superlative] what this latest tweak has wrought. In hindsight, excess high frequency energy seems to have been the culprit of what I perceived to edginess, creating a lot of 'confusion' with resultant listening fatigue. The system is much more 'relaxed' and articulate with way more frequency bandwidth, especially at the low end.

Like a fine F-1 race car, the line between great and world class performance in high end audio seems to be razor thin, but I would agree that Mike may have finally caught the car bumper...congrats.
 

Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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That is awesome that you were able to experience this revelation and on the cheep! :D

I kind of had the same occurrence today with my meager system.

After spending a lot of time reading here and knowing there was something big missing in my experience I moved some furniture around in the room and got out the measuring tape and throttled the sub-woofer down.

Hot damn the heavens opened and the light rained down, everything changed (as much as possible for this system) and I mean everything.

I only had time to do a short listening session and listened to The Alan Parsons Project (Redbook), I Robot.

I have been listening to this album since it came out and I have never heard it like this before. I FELT and SAW the story unfold instead of just listening to great music.

It actually made me get out my bible (religious experience HA) and look up Genesis 1-32, sneaky little bugger the Alan Parsons!

The soundstage was huge, each and every instrument became defined and a few new ones popped up that I never heard before! :p

Rocked my world! :D ...for FREE!

I know my moment is not on as great of scale as yours but I know HOW you feel with this experience.

Good stuff Maynard! Good on ya!
 
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Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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www.pugetsoundstudios.com
You know Mike, you may hate DSP and other tools, but measuring equipment can find any reflection points so you can treat them. Bob Hodas' services was the best money I've spent!

I'll have to get over there soon to get a listen.
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
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Hi Mike,

How wonderful! :cool: It was particularly illuminating to read jazdoc's reflections - lol. ;)
I now have been using a GML 9500 to EQ some RBCD's, which heretofore approached the abominable, sonically.
Someday, we'll find ourselves up your way, again, and hopefully, get into some music! :p
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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That is awesome that you were able to experience this revelation and on the cheep! :D

I kind of had the same occurrence today with my meager system.

After spending a lot of time reading here and knowing there was something big missing in my experience I moved some furniture around in the room and got out the measuring tape and throttled the sub-woofer down.

Hot damn the heavens opened and the light rained down, everything changed (as much as possible for this system) and I mean everything.

I only had time to do a short listening session and listened to The Alan Parsons Project (Redbook), I Robot.

I have been listening to this album since it came out and I have never heard it like this before. I FELT and SAW the story unfold instead of just listening to great music.

It actually made me get out my bible (religious experience HA) and look up Genesis 1-32, sneaky little bugger the Alan Parsons!

The soundstage was huge, each and every instrument became defined and a few new ones popped up that I never heard before! :p

Rocked my world! :D ...for FREE!

I know my moment is not on as great of scale as yours but I know HOW you feel with this experience.

Good stuff Maynard! Good on ya!

way to go Hi Fi Guy!

isn't it fun when you get upgrades from brain power.....and satisfying too.

enjoy!
 

adyc

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Jan 5, 2013
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Congrats Mike. I also have similar experience a few months ago. My listening floor is hard marble floor. My room was always a little bit bright. I did have thin carpet covering the floor around the listening chair but the room was still a bit bright. I tried many methods to tame the brightness over the years with various success. Out of a sudden, I decide to replace the carpet because I did not like the colour too much and want to change something new. I decided to replace the carpet with think wool carpet because I like the softness and firmness of the wool carpet. Wow, with the new carpet, the brightness of the room is gone. I did not realize the brightness all the years due to sound bouncing off the marble floor and the thin carpet did not do a good job absorbing the sound. And the wool carpet only costs me $500. It is the best money spent on the room treatment.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

From a person who has not (yet, long overdue :() heard Mike's room:

I am in no way trying to say that there cannot be and there weren't any improvement in whatever was done. I would however second Bruce D in suggesting to measure to find reflections points ... These could well have been there and not well distributed or addressed or whatever.... This said . a few people whose ears I would think I know and believe in, did recently and before this change heard Mike's room and their praises were unanimously effusive; not of gracious for the sake of politeness. Truly shocked and that from people with superlative systems...

So yeah , I believe there may have been improvements ... I doubt many would have find the changes as momentous as Mike did. He knows his systems extremely and is likely able to hear extremely subtle changes but again there is always the dreaded but so real expectation bias ...there I uttered it .. Sorry...

Enjoy your incredible system Mike ... You will forever chase perfection but you are closer to it than 99% of us .. Enjoy that :)
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Hi

From a person who has not (yet, long overdue :() heard Mike's room:

my dear Frantz,

I am in no way trying to say that there cannot be and there weren't any improvement in whatever was done. I would however second Bruce D in suggesting to measure to find reflections points ... These could well have been there and not well distributed or addressed or whatever....

puking:eek:......come listen first.....the invite is always open to you.

This said . a few people whose ears I would think I know and believe in, did recently and before this change heard Mike's room and their praises were unanimously effusive; not of gracious for the sake of politeness. Truly shocked and that from people with superlative systems...

So yeah , I believe there may have been improvements ... I doubt many would have find the changes as momentous as Mike did. He knows his systems extremely and is likely able to hear extremely subtle changes but again there is always the dreaded but so real expectation bias

puking again.;)

I waited until I had feedback from multiple sets of visitors with both fresh ears and familiarity with my system before I considered posting for just that reason.

...there I uttered it .. Sorry...

Enjoy your incredible system Mike

thank you Frantz

... You will forever chase perfection but you are closer to it than 99% of us .. Enjoy that :)

not anymore (chase, that is). and I'm not mentioning perfection.....that infers the wrong type of universality to my perspective. only that I'm on my own personal music reproduction mountaintop.

I'm tried of thinking critically about music reproduction. my motivation to go to audio shows has really decreased. I've slowed down buying music. in the last year or so I've added a few new serious hobbies away from audio. I've mentally moved on. but I had unfinished business which in my mind I've now checked off the list.

I know what the new dart pre will do to push this further down the road as I had it in my system for 2 weeks last June. but hearing what I'm now hearing if I had not paid for it last September I'm not sure I would still even be doing that.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,366
4,410
Congrats Mike. I also have similar experience a few months ago. My listening floor is hard marble floor. My room was always a little bit bright. I did have thin carpet covering the floor around the listening chair but the room was still a bit bright. I tried many methods to tame the brightness over the years with various success. Out of a sudden, I decide to replace the carpet because I did not like the colour too much and want to change something new. I decided to replace the carpet with think wool carpet because I like the softness and firmness of the wool carpet. Wow, with the new carpet, the brightness of the room is gone. I did not realize the brightness all the years due to sound bouncing off the marble floor and the thin carpet did not do a good job absorbing the sound. And the wool carpet only costs me $500. It is the best money spent on the room treatment.

thanks......and congrats to you for your sonic step forward.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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The best things in this hobby are free or close to free.

Maybe you want to puke at the sight of a microphone because it's being used wrong?:D
image.jpg
 

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