My minimonitor/subwoofer system

PeterA · Aug 18, 2016

Al, I really enjoyed the sound the last time I was there, especially on horns. Extremely effortless, dynamic, present and big. I agree it is very lively too.

Have you tried using one or two blocks under each speaker instead of the three shown in the photo?

Al M. · Aug 19, 2016

PeterA said:
Al, I really enjoyed the sound the last time I was there, especially on horns. Extremely effortless, dynamic, present and big. I agree it is very lively too.

Have you tried using one or two blocks under each speaker instead of the three shown in the photo?

Thanks, Peter, I am glad you liked the sound!

The greater elevation of the speakers is due to the aim of bringing the tweeter to ear height, and corresponds to the higher seating position with the new chairs (see previous thread page).

I should try to assemble the adjustable speaker stands that came with the speakers, but honestly I am too lazy at this point, and I don't expect better sound (those stands are wooden and rather light, while my current stands are sand-filled steel).

PeterA · Aug 19, 2016

Al M. said:
Thanks, Peter, I am glad you liked the sound!

The greater elevation of the speakers is due to the aim of bringing the tweeter to ear height, and corresponds to the higher seating position with the new chairs (see previous thread page).

Yes, I thought about that, but the front baffle is upward sloping, so if they are ear-height, they are firing above the head, so you are listening off axis. You might find it interesting to experiment with tilt and/or height.

Al M. · Aug 19, 2016

PeterA said:
Yes, I thought about that, but the front baffle is upward sloping, so if they are ear-height, they are firing above the head, so you are listening off axis. You might find it interesting to experiment with tilt and/or height.

That's a good point! I'll try to experiment with the amount of blocks under the speakers as you suggested.

In case I can get away with less that would have the added advantage of being more aesthetically pleasing (not that I am losing any sleep over the current looks).

Al M. · Aug 20, 2016

Thanks so much, Peter, for the great suggestion!

I removed one of the three concrete blocks under each speaker stand, lowering the speakers by 2 inches. The sonic benefits are clear.

Now I remember that of course your Magico Mini II speakers also have an upward tilt, and stand somewhat lower.

Sonic benefits: there is simply more treble. It is more pronounced, impactful and seems cleaner in several cases. Yet the tonal balance is not evenly influenced on all music/recordings. The treble is a delight with high-pitched metallic percussion in classical music and jazz. Violin tone in string quartets benefits from more perceived detail. The sound is even more open while overall tonal balance may not be shifted that much. On the other hand, the tonal balance in rock music tends to shift as a whole toward the treble which often makes the impact of the mid-bass less. I don't particularly like this aspect. Another benefit though is that some images move more forward, and that affects particularly rock in a pleasant way. So it's a give and take, a compromise, as is often the case with changes in audio.

As a side bonus, the set-up becomes more aesthetically pleasing with just two concrete blocks under each speaker stand.

Interestingly, adjusting the speaker height may be intended for treble modulation. The speaker manual states: The recommended height for positioning MM de Capo is 26" (66 cm) to 28" (72 cm). Floor reflections can be critical as the speakers have wider dispersion characteristics. Taller stands (28", 72 cm) should be used on reflective hard surface floors. Shorter, 26" (66 cm) stands should be used on carpeted, acoustically absorbent floors.

Note: my speakers are now are at 28" height. Yet given my higher seating position than usual on the upright chairs that I have, this would correspond more to the lower height of 26", with respect to angle of tweeter to the ear, in common listening situations. (The previous speaker height of 30" would correspond to 28" at a more conventional, lower seating height.)

I am not sure why previously I thought that with the tweeter at ear height the treble was better. But my experiments then were at a time when the output in the upper treble already had suffered from bad tubes, and perhaps then the modulation of treble balance by speaker height was different. Or I didn't experiment enough.

In any case, I now have enough headroom in the treble to allow for fine-tuning it by other means, without having the uncomfortable feeling that the electronics/speaker unit is on the lower 'edge' of treble output and that thus I have little freedom of change. For example, I had been nervous about some loss of treble by the installment of absorptive panels on the front wall (extending sideways from behind the corner tube traps), which hopefully will arrive next week. I want these panels for moving sonic images even more forward, and if they result in some attenuation of the treble as well this may not be unwelcome now, as opposed to what I had with respect to treble output before. I may now also play around with modulating the treble by carpet configurations between speakers and listening seat. I know from past experiments that this can have a significant effect. Currently I have as much wood floor exposed as possible to get better treble output, while still avoiding some ceiling reflections (hand clapping test) by having just sufficient carpet in the area. I can now start to modulate the level of exposure of wood floor by moving the carpet around.

Of course I could also test what is happening to the sound if I lower the speakers another 2 inches, by taking out one more concrete block from under the speaker stands.

PeterA · Aug 20, 2016

Great news, Al. Better sound, or at least learning how it can change, often comes from continued experimentation, particularly with speaker changes. You may want to now also experiment some more with toe in as the height change put your ears more on axis with the tweeter.

Do you still have the effortlessness, dynamics, big/open sound and liveliness qualities in the sound? Speaker height should alter tonal balance slightly and this may perhaps require further experimentation with your sub integration and volume settings.

It sounds like you are enjoying your efforts.

Al M. · Aug 20, 2016

Adjusting the treble again to my preferences was easy, as I had expected. I simply moved the carpet between listening chair and speakers forward with its wide side so that more of the wood floor is covered in that space. I got rid of excess treble on rock, but still have nicely extended treble on all material. Mid-bass on rock is back. Obviously it never changed, but the tonal balance now favors its impact once more. The more forward projection of some sound images remained, however. This is very much to my liking. I suppose it has to do with the better on-axis position of speaker towards listener. Absolute depth of soundstage remains the same.

Overall, a good step forward. Thanks again, Peter! Yes I am enjoying my efforts. All the attributes of sound that you asked about remained unchanged in all the configurations that I tried.

As for toe-in: yesterday I had the speakers more on toe-out, now with less treble I toed them in again a bit more.

As I went through some rock and jazz albums to assess the sound, once again I loved the incredible rhythm of the Berkeley DAC. Gone are the times when digital had persistent issues in that area; impressive how far the format has come in this respect. Plain Redbook CD through my DAC can easily compete with a great turntable when it comes to rhythm & timing. I know, I have mentioned this aspect many times before and it may get boring, but it never ceases to amaze me how far we have come from the dark days of digital when it didn't swing and it didn't rock.

jeff1225 · Aug 26, 2016

I spent hours with platforms getting the height right on my Avantgardes, they were so sensitive to vertical adjustment. What I finally did was cut 20 pieces of plywood so I could adjust the vertical by 1/2 increments. I had a friend over so he could add layers of plywood while I sat in my chair. Painstaking exercise but worth it as I was able to order Sound Anchors at the right height.

PeterA · Sep 15, 2016

I went to listen to Al’s system last night. He heard mine on Monday. I was underwhelmed at first. Yes it sounded big and had some presence as I remembered it, but it lacked some life and natural sound. It was rather thick sounding, a bit sluggish, and not involving as I know it can sound. I was surprised because I enjoyed it very much the last time I was there. We discussed it and went to dinner. When we got back, we listened some more, played with the sub, etc. I thought the room was over damped or that the sub was messing things up. It did not sound as open and dynamic as usual and the highs were missing. I really thought that the sound issues were either a problem with the sub integration or that the room was overdamped. Little did I suspect that it was as simple as speaker alignment and positioning.

So, we discussed speaker set up. He said all was fine. From the listening seat, I thought the right speaker looked slightly higher than the left one. I took his laser device and shot a dot to the center of the back wall. Sure enough, the right speaker was an inch or more higher than the left speaker. I then checked toe in and distance to the center of the back wall. Toe in was not equal and off by six or more inches, but distance was within 1/4 of an inch or less. We adjusted toe in to be equal and listened.

Sound improved. Then I put a piece of paper under the back of the right speaker stand to make each speaker equal in height at the back wall. Al, this may still be a problem if the top of one speaker is higher at the location because it could mean that it is pointing from a higher position and so would be higher at the ear even if it is the same at the back wall, so that should be checked, but it is at least the same at the back wall now.

We then found the middle of the room between the speakers and found that the left speaker was 1 1/2 inches further out from the center of the room than the right speaker was. Al, you now need to recheck distance of each tweeter to the center of the back wall since we moved the left speaker closer in, it might be a different distance than the other speaker to the center of the back wall.

Anyway, the sound locked into place and everything improved. Tone was much more natural and neutral. Thickness gone. Highs returned. Dynamics to die for. Focus, Presence, Tone all improved. The change transformed the system, in my opinion, and it is now sounding amazing. I’d say the best I’ve ever heard it and I now have a newfound and real respect for the new speakers. Tone was off the last time I heard it, though it did have an effortlessness and big sound and great presence. Imaging is excellent. The instruments shrank to their correct sizes after the changes but the sound exploding out of the speakers became bigger and more immediate. Voices, horns, drums, strings, all sound much better.

Congratulations Al, your system now truly sounds great and the best that I have heard it sound. I am surprised that those slight adjustments in speaker positioning made such a significant improvement, but they did. Resolution also seemed to improve. But above all, CLARITY is superb. It is now a much more convincing presentation and very natural sounding. The Janaki trio, Spanish Harlem, Sonny Rollins, the Cave Painting song, it was all about the music after it was sounding good. The system disappeared and I forgot about the sound and simply became lost in the music.

Spend some time over the next few days and just listen without changing a thing and let me know if you still feel the same way about the sound. You can still experiment with toe in for tonal balance shifts, but remember, the speakers have to have precisely the same relationship to the listener.

Thank you for your hospitality. I really enjoyed the listening session and I learned a lot. Your system sounds tremendous.

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

I really like the way you described how you put your system together over the years. Looks great and it kind of confirms something. I was reading a review where the guy was saying buy expensive speakers and use budget electronics because speakers are more important. I found that the speakers I have sound completely different with high end electronics. Seeing your system it appears you have some serious gear driving those monitors. The only thing I might suggest are some Isoacoustic stands under your speakers:
https://youtu.be/LvOjMbrJwDY

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

jeffrey_t said:
I spent hours with platforms getting the height right on my Avantgardes, they were so sensitive to vertical adjustment. What I finally did was cut 20 pieces of plywood so I could adjust the vertical by 1/2 increments. I had a friend over so he could add layers of plywood while I sat in my chair. Painstaking exercise but worth it as I was able to order Sound Anchors at the right height.

That is dedication. I would have just sat on a pillow instead and then slouched or sat up as needed.

MadFloyd · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
That is dedication. I would have just sat on a pillow instead and then slouched or sat up as needed.

It's not always about the relative height of the tweeters and your ears but the distance from the woofers to the floor.

jeff1225 · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
That is dedication. I would have just sat on a pillow instead and then slouched or sat up as needed.

MY grandmother taught us not to slouch.....

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

MadFloyd said:
It's not always about the relative height of the tweeters and your ears but the distance from the woofers to the floor.

I am just saying this is something i KNOW I should do too but I just can't get off my butt to do it

Al M. · Sep 15, 2016

PeterA said:
I went to listen to Al’s system last night. He heard mine on Monday. I was underwhelmed at first. Yes it sounded big and had some presence as I remembered it, but it lacked some life and natural sound. It was rather thick sounding, a bit sluggish, and not involving as I know it can sound. I was surprised because I enjoyed it very much the last time I was there. We discussed it and went to dinner. When we got back, we listened some more, played with the sub, etc. I thought the room was over damped or that the sub was messing things up. It did not sound as open and dynamic as usual and the highs were missing. I really thought that the sound issues were either a problem with the sub integration or that the room was overdamped. Little did I suspect that it was as simple as speaker alignment and positioning.

So, we discussed speaker set up. He said all was fine. From the listening seat, I thought the right speaker looked slightly higher than the left one. I took his laser device and shot a dot to the center of the back wall. Sure enough, the right speaker was an inch or more higher than the left speaker. I then checked toe in and distance to the center of the back wall. Toe in was not equal and off by six or more inches, but distance was within 1/4 of an inch or less. We adjusted toe in to be equal and listened.

Sound improved. Then I put a piece of paper under the back of the right speaker stand to make each speaker equal in height at the back wall. Al, this may still be a problem if the top of one speaker is higher at the location because it could mean that it is pointing from a higher position and so would be higher at the ear even if it is the same at the back wall, so that should be checked, but it is at least the same at the back wall now.

We then found the middle of the room between the speakers and found that the left speaker was 1 1/2 inches further out from the center of the room than the right speaker was. Al, you now need to recheck distance of each tweeter to the center of the back wall since we moved the left speaker closer in, it might be a different distance than the other speaker to the center of the back wall.

Anyway, the sound locked into place and everything improved. Tone was much more natural and neutral. Thickness gone. Highs returned. Dynamics to die for. Focus, Presence, Tone all improved. The change transformed the system, in my opinion, and it is now sounding amazing. I’d say the best I’ve ever heard it and I now have a newfound and real respect for the new speakers. Tone was off the last time I heard it, though it did have an effortlessness and big sound and great presence. Imaging is excellent. The instruments shrank to their correct sizes after the changes but the sound exploding out of the speakers became bigger and more immediate. Voices, horns, drums, strings, all sound much better.

Congratulations Al, your system now truly sounds great and the best that I have heard it sound. I am surprised that those slight adjustments in speaker positioning made such a significant improvement, but they did. Resolution also seemed to improve. But above all, CLARITY is superb. It is now a much more convincing presentation and very natural sounding. The Janaki trio, Spanish Harlem, Sonny Rollins, the Cave Painting song, it was all about the music after it was sounding good. The system disappeared and I forgot about the sound and simply became lost in the music.

Spend some time over the next few days and just listen without changing a thing and let me know if you still feel the same way about the sound. You can still experiment with toe in for tonal balance shifts, but remember, the speakers have to have precisely the same relationship to the listener.

Thank you for your hospitality. I really enjoyed the listening session and I learned a lot. Your system sounds tremendous.

Thank you very much, Peter, for your detailed write-up, and your help in making my system sound better, not just yesterday but over the years. I really enjoyed the evening as well, and I am glad you were so impressed with the sound after all the changes. I learned a lot, too.

This morning I was listening again to see if our impressions still hold up, and they do. While I would not have described all the before/after differences in as drastic terms, I agree that the improvements in focus, clarity, dynamics and tone are really remarkable. All at no cost and due to just small changes in speaker set-up, a relatively most effort. I had already wondered that the tone of some singing voices lately had seemed slightly off, now they are good again.

I have played quite a bit with toe-in lately, and I must not have gotten it quite right last time. The toe-in was off just slightly *), and I had adjusted it just by eye. Obviously, laser measurement is more precise, and a slight deviation does make a difference as we heard. A laser measuring device should be a mandatory accessory for any high-end system. Just putting speakers in a room and hoping for the best will not do, regardless of the cost of the system. And neither will adjustment just by sight. The sound waves from both speakers should hit the listener at the same time and at the same phase.

As for the dynamics: we had discussed that earlier in the evening, before the changes, how the playing of the Janaki Trio in the Beethoven string trio op. 9 No. 3 seemed less dynamic, making us doubt their musicianship somewhat. And we had agreed that after the changes there was no lack of dynamics expression. The better system performance made the musicians seem better performers as well!

__________

*) you say toe-in was off by 6 or more inches. That is with the laser pointing from the side of the speakers towards the back wall, which is about 19 feet away. Over such a distance slight changes in angle of course measure in several inches. I had thought of measuring toe-in with laser before, but I never had good reference points at the back wall. Now I do (that's another story).

Al M. · Sep 15, 2016

PeterA said:
We then found the middle of the room between the speakers and found that the left speaker was 1 1/2 inches further out from the center of the room than the right speaker was. Al, you now need to recheck distance of each tweeter to the center of the back wall since we moved the left speaker closer in, it might be a different distance than the other speaker to the center of the back wall.

I measured this morning. It's spot on.

Al M. · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
I really like the way you described how you put your system together over the years. Looks great and it kind of confirms something. I was reading a review where the guy was saying buy expensive speakers and use budget electronics because speakers are more important. I found that the speakers I have sound completely different with high end electronics. Seeing your system it appears you have some serious gear driving those monitors. The only thing I might suggest are some Isoacoustic stands under your speakers:
https://youtu.be/LvOjMbrJwDY

Yes, my speakers are by far the cheapest component of the system at $ 3 K, compared to digital playback rig and amps. The signal feeding the speakers is of paramount importance; any speaker will only sound as good as the signal it is fed. Even just the external power supplies to my amps cost more ($ 4 K as a pair) than the speakers, and they make a tremendous difference in system performance, see my review:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...trol-MB-external-power-supplies-for-tube-amps

Having said that, my speakers are obviously of tremendous value for money. Also, I got them as direct purchase through the manufacturer; from a store such a speaker pair might have been double in price.

***

Thanks for the recommendation of stands. I should try them, even though my current ones are of quite serious caliber, sand-filled metal, which is heavy.

Al M. · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
That is dedication. I would have just sat on a pillow instead and then slouched or sat up as needed.

Sitting on a pillow is exactly what I did when evaluating if further lowering of the speakers would have a beneficial effect. It didn't.

MadFloyd said:
It's not always about the relative height of the tweeters and your ears but the distance from the woofers to the floor.

....which is a good point.

jeffrey_t said:
MY grandmother taught us not to slouch.....

Which is why I have the new, upright listening chairs, see thread page 6.

PeterA · Sep 15, 2016

Al M. said:
Thank you very much, Peter, for your detailed write-up, and your help in making my system sound better, not just yesterday but over the years. I really enjoyed the evening as well, and I am glad you were so impressed with the sound after all the changes. I learned a lot, too.

This morning I was listening again to see if our impressions still hold up, and they do. While I would not have described all the before/after differences in as drastic terms, I agree that the improvements in focus, clarity, dynamics and tone are really remarkable. All at no cost and due to just small changes in speaker set-up, a relatively most effort. I had already wondered that the tone of some singing voices lately had seemed slightly off, now they are good again.

I have played quite a bit with toe-in lately, and I must not have gotten it quite right last time. The toe-in was off just slightly *), and I had adjusted it just by eye. Obviously, laser measurement is more precise, and a slight deviation does make a difference as we heard. A laser measuring device should be a mandatory accessory for any high-end system. Just putting speakers in a room and hoping for the best will not do, regardless of the cost of the system. And neither will adjustment just by sight. The sound waves from both speakers should hit the listener at the same time and at the same phase.

As for the dynamics: we had discussed that earlier in the evening, before the changes, how the playing of the Janaki Trio in the Beethoven string trio op. 9 No. 3 seemed less dynamic, making us doubt their musicianship somewhat. And we had agreed that after the changes there was no lack of dynamics expression. The better system performance made the musicians seem better performers as well!

__________

*) you say toe-in was off by 6 or more inches. That is with the laser pointing from the side of the speakers towards the back wall, which is about 19 feet away. Over such a distance slight changes in angle of course measure in several inches. I had thought of measuring toe-in with laser before, but I never had good reference points at the back wall. Now I do (that's another story).

You are most welcome, Al. It is extremely gratifying to learn something while also making changes that improve the sound of one's system - especially when they don't cost anything. Perhaps my comments about the before and after differences were rather drastic. But, some people pay large percentages of overall system cost to eek out that last 5% of performance which can take a system from being pretty good, to extremely involving. But in my experience, that is not usually from a hardware upgrade.

In absolute terms, or measurement terms, no, the changes may not be as drastic as I described, but, honestly, for me, the system went from being not emotionally involving, though sonically impressive in certain areas, and more about sound and artifacts, that is "what is wrong", which distracted from the music. It was transformed to a completely involving and convincing musical experience. That, to me, is drastic and extreme. By the end of the evening, I was struck by just how beautiful the music was, the tone of the voices, the immediacy of the sound, and the presence of the performers being in the room. I could have listened for many more hours.

I want to add, and reiterate a comment I made to you last night. A system which can deliver that amount of emotional connection to the music is not about solid state, tubes, analog or digital. Those distinctions are meaningless, and not even a part of the conscious listening experience, when one is only thinking about the music and the performance. Discussing typologies and making generalizations is for forum talk and usually made by people who have not heard great examples of each. I have learned from hearing your system and comparing it to mine, that the typological differences between our sources and amplification just don't matter in the end, as long as the system as a whole is well assembled and properly set up.

What a wonderful system.

MadFloyd · Sep 15, 2016

G*R*O*A*N

Now I have to drive back up north again soon.

My minimonitor/subwoofer system

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