Why demos and box swapping make me happier than buying

bonzo75 · Mar 31, 2015

http://m.fastcompany.com/3043858/wo...uld-spend-your-money-on-experiences-not-thing

marty · Mar 31, 2015

They missed a big one. Go hear live music!! Any live music!

bonzo75 · Mar 31, 2015

They did mention concerts. And I average one concert a week

spiritofmusic · Apr 1, 2015

Bonzo, I know you asked me to look at this. It is fascinating and chimes a lot w/me. Despite me being an inveterate box swapper/upgrader etc. Will give this side of things ongoing thought.

JackD201 · Apr 1, 2015

My audio hobby fits right in then. My goal has never been to just "reproduce" but rather to create an experience. The latter gives me just a little bit more license and wiggle room, not quite artistic freedom but flirting with it.

caesar · Apr 1, 2015

High end audio hobby is all about experiences. Some folks enjoy swapping boxes, and subsequently cables, to make those boxes sing better. Others have a well defined reference (such as live music) that they are striving and upgrading for. Yet others just like to listen to music.

Personally, like most people here, I have swapped boxes. But the experience of listening to different gear and re-listening to the same recordings so I can hear and discover more details, doesn't put me in the "state of flow", that psychological state of pure bliss when you are so engrossed and captured by an activity that you and the activity become one...

I am in this hobby so I can get immersed in listening to music that all other stimuli are blocked, while mind and body are fused. I have no problem with swapping boxes, as long as those boxes match my reference of live music and help that state of flow come about. However, if it's swapping boxes just to hear more detail or to look for better execution of audiophile vocabulary, I don't enjoy it. Who cares if you discover some muted chatter among the band mates or if the violinist scratched his beytzim?

But in the end it's a hobby that people enjoy and lets' them get away from the daily grind, so whatever experience puts folks in the state of flow is all that matters.

spiritofmusic · Apr 1, 2015

At Bonzo's suggestion to listen to more live classical, I went to listen to Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade at the Royal Festival Hall, with the London Philharmonic. There was no doubt it was a surreal experience, power, dynamics, and natural warmth with neutrality that went beyond anything I've ever heard at home. And to the point of the article, there would be a lot to say to ditch the home system, certainly the relentless dissatisfaction/upgrade path, and attend live concerts several times a week to immerse in an adrenalin fuelled experience. And no doubt sharing it w/others transforms an ephemeral experience into something more powerful.
Interestingly, listening to the same piece on my system at home invoked many of the same emotions, and I was surprised how close the experience was in overall terms of involvment, obv not in pure off the scale characteristics. And for me some judicious upgrading has got me to the point that I genuinely get a thrill every time I listen to my system. Despite criticisms, my changing of ancillaries like cables, isolation, power, and component grounding is crystallising what is so good about my individual components, so much so that despite hearing pricey upgrades like horn spkrs that really attract me, my gear stacks up really well, and once the memory passes I don't pine for the stuff as I did when my system was much poorer performing, even 10 yrs ago.
So, much as I'm sympathetic to the tenor of the article, judicious spending in this hobby can produce really positive benefits. Just as the opposite can happen like when I hear guys about to enter their second £/$ hundred grands' spending and are still panicking about being nowhere near an acceptable sound.

bonzo75 · Apr 1, 2015

Music is best heard live or on YouTube (loads of bootlegs you won't get on proper recordings). I really don't see why one needs to run a krell vs audio research thread or a CAT thread to listen to music. They all play music great. The moment one starts changing components at this level or upgrading his power, he is into audiophilia. Sure, music and audiophilia do feed off each other, but both hobbies need to be fed in a very different manner.

Folks on the Gramophone records forum are much more into classical music and much less into hifi gear

spiritofmusic · Apr 1, 2015

Bonzo, I couldn't disagree w/you more. You've travelled far and wide to reach your conclusion, while me and many others have carefully upgraded to get net gains in musical enjoyment. Of course others are on the way to continual heartache and frustration too. I think it's a little rich of you to just characterise the whole hobby as navel gazing and pointless "my brand is better than yours". Just because you've spent countless hours travelling and listening to come to believe in this doesn't mean it's true. You certainly believe your Lampi DAC to be superior to anything out there. I don't see you giving up on it anytime soon, despite you believing contests btwn brands are distractions.
Nothing like a born again anti-audiophile.
But I'm sure we can all agree music is often best heard live.

JackD201 · Apr 1, 2015

There's a time to put on the proverbial overalls and hopefully the time to put on the smoking jacket in any hobby. ANY hobby that requires equipment. Whether its me tinkering with my clubs or zeroing out a scope, Andre preparing his tennis rackets for a tournament, Bill tuning the suspension of his track car, Amir prepping his camera batteries for extreme cold or Gary readying his aquarium, that's the overalls part. Hitting that shot close, getting through that corner perfectly, getting that amazing pic or a bird and watching that new micro-eco system, that's the smoking jacket part. We complain, tinker, complain some more, tinker some more. When we get it right, when it gets to the point where you don't even think of teh equipment, BOOM! It's time to sit back and enjoy.

If anything that's what I see some people forget to do, enjoy. It's not hard. You can do it even before you get to the finish line. You just have to remind yourself that you deserve a break every now and then.

zztop7 · Apr 1, 2015

Thomas A. Edison [you know - the light bulb inventor]

JackD201 said:
There's a time to put on the proverbial overalls

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas A. Edison [you know - the light bulb inventor].

zz.

MtnHam · Apr 1, 2015

As a frequent patron of the San Francisco Symphony at Davies Hall, I have come to the conclusion that I have better sound at home. While there is much to be said for the live performance, being part of the audience, the amazing spectacle, excitement, etc, I reap greater sonic satisfaction from music on my own system. And, then there is the comfort of a better seat, freedom of movement, libations, etc.

Granted, I own a world class system. It didn't happen overnight. But I have it, a great library (including 3500p's collected over the last 50 years), easy access to 22,000+ CD's from the public library, and many of my own. I will continue to attend live music, but in today's "live concert" world, it is rare you hear unamplified sound, and when you do the acoustics may not be ideal.

bonzo75 · Apr 1, 2015

Spirit not sure what my Lampi has to do with it. I like it from an audiophile point of view. One doesn't need a Lampi to enjoy music.

bonzo75 · Apr 2, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Bonzo, I couldn't disagree w/you more. You've travelled far and wide to reach your conclusion, while me and many others have carefully upgraded to get net gains in musical enjoyment. Of course others are on the way to continual heartache and frustration too. I think it's a little rich of you to just characterise the whole hobby as navel gazing and pointless "my brand is better than yours". Just because you've spent countless hours travelling and listening to come to believe in this doesn't mean it's true. You certainly believe your Lampi DAC to be superior to anything out there. I don't see you giving up on it anytime soon, despite you believing contests btwn brands are distractions.
Nothing like a born again anti-audiophile.
But I'm sure we can all agree music is often best heard live.

I also didn't see anything you refer to in my messages. "my brand better than yours" - what are you referring to. My point was that all of us - you, me, anyone who has swapped or upgraded, has done so for audiophilia, and there are a lot of people out there without an hifi equipment who can enjoy music. I never said I am anti-audiophile. I actually enjoy demoing and box swapping, I am just saying that is the audiophile in me. I have different ways of attending to my music hobby. Not sure what you are talking about

spiritofmusic · Apr 2, 2015

Bonzo, you mention live concerts and Yotube. Both require no equipment spending. The article mentions the ephemeral, community experience, lived once, valued in your memory. Only the price of admission applies. So, why are you an audiophile if you subscribe to these? Your search is a very different from the rest of us, and I know you believe your path is inherently superior than mine. If you didn't you wouldn't have criticised my priorities when we meet.
If you're going to sit on the fence and say box ownership and upgrading is subservient to the live experience, but at the same time still box swap and own y'self, what does this say about you?
In my case, I get plenty of joy driving around w/my good friend in his van listening to mp3's of Johnny Cash and Elvis all day, and love his "in vehicle" sound more than I would have thought, I love listening to buskers on the London Underground/subway, I love catching bootlegs on Youtube I haven't heard before, I love listening to music in the morning on my GF's £300 '90s midi system, and I really love what I heard w/Brandenberg Concertos live string septet and Scheherazade by London Philharmonic. Each of these experiences is totally fun in their own way.
But I most love my home system. And my upgrade path is mainly to max it's potential.
So yours is an argument of having it both ways, positing the idea that brands are pretty interchangeable, and the search for a perfect sound mostly a diversion, enjoy the non upgrading path via live and Youtube, but in your case, still sticking to box swapping etc.

spiritofmusic · Apr 2, 2015

Still stating opinions as fact, Bonzo? I don't know what you're talking about when you assert AS FACT that box swapping is in the service JUST of audiophilia, not actually better sound. For some it may be one upmanship, careless spending, obsessive dissatisfaction, inability to sit still. For me and many others, it's been a necessary method to get to vastly better sound, and then parallel spending on tweaks to max out impvd sound potential.
So please don't label what me and others have done as in the service of the hobby ALONE w/no discernible benefits. My spending really allows me more than ever to be in the moment. That's tangible end results, not clinging to just a hobby or label/lifestyle choice.
And if this isn't your intention w/your thread/comments, maybe you should be less ambiguous.

bonzo75 · Apr 2, 2015

Spirit, you are having a spirited argument that has no relation to what I am saying. You interpreted 'subservience', I never even implied it. I just said these are different hobbies. Audiophilia (box swapping, being geeky about gear, demoing) is a different hobby than music, though related to it. I never used the words subservience and most of what you have written up there, I cannot relate to. I never suggested my path is superior to yours, not on this thread anyway. If you think I think so due to offline arguments, I suggest we keep that offline.

In fact , what you are saying in your message is that you agree with me, because you love listening to music on youtube, in the vehicle, on your GF's system, and then you have a different hobby to upgrade your home system to it's max.

Maybe you should change your user id to spirit of audiophilia, or just plain Spirited, given the way you argue. Take it all in good spirits

bonzo75 · Apr 2, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Still stating opinions as fact, Bonzo? I don't know what you're talking about when you assert AS FACT that box swapping is in the service JUST of audiophilia, not actually better sound. For some it may be one upmanship, careless spending, obsessive dissatisfaction, inability to sit still. For me and many others, it's been a necessary method to get to vastly better sound, and then parallel spending on tweaks to max out impvd sound potential.
So please don't label what me and others have done as in the service of the hobby ALONE w/no discernible benefits. My spending really allows me more than ever to be in the moment. That's tangible end results, not clinging to just a hobby or label/lifestyle choice.
And if this isn't your intention w/your thread/comments, maybe you should be less ambiguous.

I think if I write something here it is well understood it is an opinion? Unless I state it is someone else's opinion, or a factoid from the 'Journal of whatever'? I am off this thread, you just want to fight, ciao

Phelonious Ponk · Apr 2, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Spirit, you are having a spirited argument that has no relation to what I am saying. You interpreted 'subservience', I never even implied it. I just said these are different hobbies. Audiophilia (box swapping, being geeky about gear, demoing) is a different hobby than music, though related to it. I never used the words subservience and most of what you have written up there, I cannot relate to. I never suggested my path is superior to yours, not on this thread anyway. If you think I think so due to offline arguments, I suggest we keep that offline.

In fact , what you are saying in your message is that you agree with me, because you love listening to music on youtube, in the vehicle, on your GF's system, and then you have a different hobby to upgrade your home system to it's max.

Maybe you should change your user id to spirit of audiophilia, or just plain Spirited, given the way you argue. Take it all in good spirits

You'll get no argument out of me on that one.

Tim

spiritofmusic · Apr 2, 2015

I'll extend my apologies if I've misinterpreted the thrust of this thread. The point is obv a little too subtle for me. It sure is an interesting concept to just attend live classical and be in the moment. Anyhow, regrets for any bad vibes generated. I'll stick to face to face w/Bonzo.

Why demos and box swapping make me happier than buying

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