The last turntable and the last CD

Big Dog RJ

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Feb 2, 2012
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Greetings from Melbourne! This is something I should have done 21 years ago...

I noticed that most of our members either had some sort of analogue gear with very phono stages, and were always listing these items above their digital sources.

Going back 20 years, when I left the US and was heading home before coming to Australia, I sold off my last TT which was a top of the line Technics 1500 something model... not sure. Then went completely digital, getting rid of all my LP's. I started with a Marantz CD player, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Conrad Johnson-DV2B (tube stage CD player), BAT, Cayin (CD50T), Audio Research (Ref 7, highly regarded tube cd player), and finally onto a McIntosh SACD player.

Just last week headed out for a hair cut, and right next door was opened a new store called "Goldmine Records". I walked in and started to cry... They had all sorts of LP's from rock/pop/Jazz/Blues etc., and located on the side windows were several vintage turntables displayed in heavily used condition. Although they were badly looked after, they were most recently serviced with tube phono stages, and a very old Yamaha and Marantz speaker & amplifier. I asked the chap to hook it up, and boy! I really started to cry. My eyes and ears just opened to the heavens!

Everything about that last TT I had was coming back, the soundstage, depth, dynamic modulation, extensive bandwidth and sheer musicality cannot be duplicated on CD or SACD or whatever crazy high-res download there is out there... digital is no where compared to phono. This was something of fresh air, and like I said it was my last TT back in the US.

I just had to get hold of a new TT, but which one, and for how much? There a million varieties out there, and some at crazy prices. So I ventured into the store that is the distributor for ARC and Rega, all a bunch of really nice guys who know their stuff! I came out with a spanking brand new Rega RP3 with an upgraded phono stage using the Ortofon 2m black cartridge. I bought approximately 9 LP's to start with, and defintely need some more. One thing for sure is that the Russel Malone SACD album will be "the last CD" for me.

With a Rega RP3, Conrad Johnson tube amplification, Quad electrostatic speakers, what really more does one need?

In another room with the Stradivari, and ARC Ref monoblocks, they had the awesome souding Michelle Gyro Deck for a very good price, that just might be the next upgrade...
As for now, I am absolutely stunned by the RP3 and what it does, conveys music in its' most natural form, and now I understand why you audiophiles and music lovers truly cherish your vinyl. Cheers to the phono stage!

I know I am going to be on a truly happy journey with this TT since both my wife and daughter actually appreciate it way more than the digital source. They are thrilled with it, and she has now bought a Lady Gaga and Adele Lp, and wants to listen to it nearly every day! Lady Gaga go figure... I prefer just jazz!

Nice one, and hats off to Rega!
Plenty of Scotch and couple cigars tonight...
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Great post, great thread!!! My favorite part is the 2nd to last paragraph...when everyone in your family is thrilled to enjoy it together. Great stuff.

...actually the scotch sounds pretty good too! ;)...enjoy!
 

Johnny Vinyl

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Welcome back into the vinyl fold RJ! I've not owned any Rega TT's, so I can't speak to it, but well done on your choice of the Ortofon 2M Back cartridge. I don't think there is a MM/Mi cartridge out there that extracts more information from an LP's grooves.

I'll have to pass on the Scotch, but I'll gladly join you with a pint of Fosters! :)
 

JackD201

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We have a similar story RJ. I was all digital for a number of years. Very decent stuff with a Pro Tascam Transport feeding a Levinson 360S via AES/EBU. The transport was located very far away from the system to help isolate it. Then one day a friend brought over a VPI Aries 2, a phonostage and a Strad cart. It never made it out of my house. There really is something different about LPs. In another thread I told the story of how my 15 yr old daughter got into it. Last night she raided my LP collection, Coldplay, Nirvana, The Beatles. She also went bargain hunting at an LP swap meet and sadly got fleeced for the first time. She should have gone with Dad and not Mom :p In her words, "It sounds different Dad, I really like it." That's not audiophile prose for sure but I'm pretty sure I get what she means, exactly. :D
 

Big Dog RJ

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Feb 2, 2012
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Great post, great thread!!! My favorite part is the 2nd to last paragraph...when everyone in your family is thrilled to enjoy it together. Great stuff.

...actually the scotch sounds pretty good too! ;)...enjoy!

Thanks Loyd! Yes they are completely thrilled and she just bought another one this afternoon, Amy Wine House, awesome album! very sad she is no longer with us, she was an absolute gem of a voice. I picked up a few myself all brand new; Fleet Wood Mac greatest hits, Casandra Wilson Traveling Miles, Diana Krall Glad Rag Doll, Ray Charles Genius Loves Company; that brings up my LP collection to 10, hooray!

Wherever I see a store with LP's I go bananas... I don't know what it is, just simply musical to every tenth of a second.
Cheers mate, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

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Welcome back into the vinyl fold RJ! I've not owned any Rega TT's, so I can't speak to it, but well done on your choice of the Ortofon 2M Back cartridge. I don't think there is a MM/Mi cartridge out there that extracts more information from an LP's grooves.

I'll have to pass on the Scotch, but I'll gladly join you with a pint of Fosters! :)

Hey Johnny you're absolutely right! I first used the 2M Blue and that was quite good. Then for an extra couple hundred the chap said if I could stretch it, there is one cartridge that they recommend highly with the Rega RP3, and that was the 2M Black. I will never regret it, simply worth every penny, nickle and dime...

They had some other pretty awesome stuff from Koetsu, Benz Micro, and Lyra but they were far above my reach. The 2M Blue and Black are quite good. I mostly use the 2M Blue for most of my listening, and keep the 2M Black only for very special LP's, such as the recent Miles Davis Kind of Blue album I purchased on Wednesday. That is one outstanding album!
Since I'm just starting out again after nearly 21 years, I don't want to suddenly run after cartridges. Therefore, I will preserve the 2M Black for as long as I can.

Currently the TT is running on the 2M Blue now with a Ray Charles album, Jazz at Newton, sounds awesome, so engaging with an enveloping sound.

Hey! Fosters sounds good, since I have run out of scotch. If you ever come over to Melbourne, I'll host you to some great beers that are far better than Fosters. James Boags, Cascade Premium and Stella. Boags and Cascade are from Tasmania, Stella is from Belgium, all great stuff indeed!
Cheers to you mate, and let me know what I should further learn about the best from LP's and phono stages.
RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

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Feb 2, 2012
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We have a similar story RJ. I was all digital for a number of years. Very decent stuff with a Pro Tascam Transport feeding a Levinson 360S via AES/EBU. The transport was located very far away from the system to help isolate it. Then one day a friend brought over a VPI Aries 2, a phonostage and a Strad cart. It never made it out of my house. There really is something different about LPs. In another thread I told the story of how my 15 yr old daughter got into it. Last night she raided my LP collection, Coldplay, Nirvana, The Beatles. She also went bargain hunting at an LP swap meet and sadly got fleeced for the first time. She should have gone with Dad and not Mom :p In her words, "It sounds different Dad, I really like it." That's not audiophile prose for sure but I'm pretty sure I get what she means, exactly. :D

G'day Jack!

Yes, the ladies seem to absolutely love this thing for some reason. My wife tells me that listening to Adele and Amy on the TT is like receiving a big warm hug...
The c-j valve gear with the Quad stats brings out all the details and nuances like never before, and that soundstage depth is truly remarkable!

The store had some very outstanding players as well as top line phono stages; VPI, Linn, Thorens, Project Signature, Rega RP10, Michelle Gyro Deck, and they also had the SME range. Top line Phono stages were from conrad johnson, and ARC. They also had one good project phono stage with tubes but these were all close to the 10 grand mark. There was one TT that really caught my eye, the McIntosh MT5, and MT10. They look stunning, and since I absolutely love the look of Mac gear I went truly nuts! However, these were each retailing at around 15 grand, so forget that.

The chaps understood what my budget was, and were able to put together a phono system that really shines musically for a fraction of the cost, and this is where the Rega RP3 with the 2M Black cartridge comes to play. The 2M Black is an outstanding cartridge, it can deliver something really special, and seems to fit perfectly with the Rega.
The 2M Blue is what I mostly use for now, since I want to preserve the 2M black for as long as I can.

Cheers mate, and have a good one!
RJ
 

Al M.

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RJ, great read, your opening post and all the others posts here, and I am glad you enjoy your new experience so much.

I have been listening to top TT (Nottingham, SME) at other audiophiles' houses lately, and I am very impressed with how they sound on the very best recordings; on average recordings/pressings not so much.

Yet even so, I do not see any compelling reason to add a TT to my digital playback, which is standard Redbook CD. My gear has revealed resolution and musicality from CD that I had not thought possible, and I keep enjoying CD tremendously and find music from it thoroughly involving. To everyone their own I guess.

A younger music buddy of mine who grew up on CD and later, during his student years, switched to LPs because he found them sound better, said about CD playback on my system: "This is as good as the best vinyl I've heard!" Granted, he may not have heard the very best LP playback (and he certainly hasn't heard an SME TT), but still. He clearly isn't missing any musicality from my system either.
 

Al M.

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Yes, the ladies seem to absolutely love this thing for some reason. My wife tells me that listening to Adele and Amy on the TT is like receiving a big warm hug...

I have no doubt that Adele must sound much better on LP; I have heard enough horror stories about Adele CDs to believe that. Yet this is not a problem of the CD format itself, but rather one of apparently lousy digital mastering.

The majority of classical CDs are well or quite well mastered, and a good proportion of jazz CDs also falls in this category. These are the genres of music that I listen to most anyway. Rock/pop CDs -- obviously, good mastering is more rare. Yet I cannot complain, for example, about most of my lot of Frank Zappa CDs, re-issued a few years ago with great care under sponsorship of the Zappa Family Trust. In fact, I'm probably going to listen to one this morning (Hot Rats or Sheik Yerbouti).

By the way, the Frank Zappa re-issues, even though done with great care, were on CD only, not SACD or other 'hi-res'. Why? Relevance. That's also why I never bothered with these other formats. There''s just not enough music on them.
 

JackD201

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RJ, great read, your opening post and all the others posts here, and I am glad you enjoy your new experience so much.

I have been listening to top TT (Nottingham, SME) at other audiophiles' houses lately, and I am very impressed with how they sound on the very best recordings; on average recordings/pressings not so much.

Yet even so, I do not see any compelling reason to add a TT to my digital playback, which is standard Redbook CD. My gear has revealed resolution and musicality from CD that I had not thought possible, and I keep enjoying CD tremendously and find music from it thoroughly involving. To everyone their own I guess.

A younger music buddy of mine who grew up on CD and later, during his student years, switched to LPs because he found them sound better, said about CD playback on my system: "This is as good as the best vinyl I've heard!" Granted, he may not have heard the very best LP playback (and he certainly hasn't heard an SME TT), but still. He clearly isn't missing any musicality from my system either.

You are cheating. Everything sounds good with good triodes. :D
 

Johnny Vinyl

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I have no doubt that Adele must sound much better on LP; I have heard enough horror stories about Adele CDs to believe that.

I can assure you that the LP is NOT a significant improvement, and neither is her prior release (Adele 19) and the Amy Winehouse releases. They are some of the worst vinyl releases I've come across. A real shame as the music is so fabulous.
 

JackD201

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Just caught my daughter smuggling another LP upstairs. I said "Two words sweetie: Genre, Alphabetical. Oh heck. You can have that one." :D
 

Al M.

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You are cheating. Everything sounds good with good triodes. :D

Actually, the Spectral DMC-15 SS/DMA 260 combo sounded very similar to my amps when I tested it in my system 2 years ago. In the meantime my amps have undergone a very substantial upgrade with external power supplies (see my review in my signature). I'd be curious how the comparison would play out now.
 

Al M.

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I can assure you that the LP is NOT a significant improvement, and neither is her prior release (Adele 19) and the Amy Winehouse releases. They are some of the worst vinyl releases I've come across. A real shame as the music is so fabulous.

Ok, probably LP masters from a horrible digital master tape. What do they say, you can't make gold out of garbage, or something like that?

Yeah, the music is great, but I've heard it only on the radio and airplane. I guess I'll keep it that way ;)
 

Big Dog RJ

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OK gentlemen, I'll tell it like it is, music off CD's has no soul! They sound "hollow".

Al M; I'm not saying that the Cd sound is crappy or anything... I was so hooked onto Cd's and its convenience that I thought I'd never go back to LP's. Similarly I have heard Cd players costing somewhere around 20 to 40 grand, names such as MBL and top line stuff from Meitner, Dcs Puccini and so on, I can strongly say that they will never replace the "soul" of whats embedded in a well recorded LP.

I am not hating my McIntosh either, I rather love it! It has all the depth, sound-staging, transient details, nuances and imaging that is required, and that's about it! When I listen to phono, there is something on that LP that makes you start tapping either your toes or playing an imaginary instrument such as bass. My present system has achieved the CD/SACD playback to it's highest level possible. I was under the impression that I need to change my amplification in order to achieve that extra oomph, that extra detail, that extra staging, depth and bottom end extension that seems to go on forever... All I can say is at the moment I don't need to change anything! 60 watts of stereo tube power coming off KT120's with electrostats seems to be MORE than plenty!

I was so focused on getting the latest digital sources, SACD, DSD, high-res downloads etc., that I didn't realize that I was missing out on the one primary factor, the MUSIC!

Al, I can see that your system has achieved its Cd playback quality to top notch levels. Just as your system, mine was very satisfying with virtually any Cd I would listen to, and believe me I would listen for endless hours... The chaps at McIntosh told me that I would require a TT that costs around 15 grand to achieve better quality or surpass my digital playback system. They were trying to promote the MT10 or the MT5, they were trying to sell me a top of the line VPI that retails for around 20 grand is Australian dollars...
I thought they were nuts after listening to that vintage Marantz, Yamaha & Technics system, at the record store, it sounded fabulous! That system was around 30 years old!

That's when I walked into the ARC, Rega store and mentioned this to the other chap, and he laughed! Initially he suggested that I listen to just a simple pair of Monitor Audio speakers, driven with Rega amplification (70 watts of SS integrated stereo power). I tried several TT's, the RP1, RP3, RP6, RP8, RP10, Project DC Espirit, Project signature and the Michelle Gyro Deck. The least expensive was the RP1 just under $500, and the most expensive was the Gyro Deck around $5,500. The RP3 with its upgrades was just marvelous, and fitted my budget perfectly. I then brought it home and hooked it up to my system that cost nearly 25 times more, and oh! my golly the heavens were opened...

I cannot think of any better worthwhile upgrade so far, and all the digital systems I have heard, so far, have not delivered what I have just experienced.

If you're truly happy with your Cd playback, keep it that way and enjoy. However, I can bet on it that since your current system sounds pretty good coming off Cd's, just wait till you drop in an "entry level" TT such as either a Rega or Project, and you'll wonder what the hec is digital doing...

I just listened to the Adele album 21, Fleetwood Mac's greatest hits, Diana Krall Glad Rag Doll and Casandra Wilson's Traveling Miles, one word - stunning!
I have the very same exact Cd's and one on SACD, there not even close, as I said they all lack soul... I really don't think that digital will ever be able to deliver this "soul" because digital was not meant to do that.

It is now 3:41am, and I have just turned off the system, and need to hit the sack since I need to make pancakes for the ladies in the morning. I hope I get the consistency right...
Cheers to all you vinyl lovers, keep those turn tables spinning!
RJ
 

Al M.

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OK gentlemen, I'll tell it like it is, music off CD's has no soul! They sound "hollow".

Sorry to bust your bubble, RJ, but this is nonsense. Music from CD playback through my system has all the soul I need. I miss nothing in that respect compared to the high-level LP playback that I have heard, and I miss very little in this respect when it comes to comparing with unamplified live music (the sound differences are another matter entirely). In fact, I'll go to another concert tonight (modern 'classical' avant-garde).

When I listen to phono, there is something on that LP that makes you start tapping either your toes or playing an imaginary instrument such as bass.

I understand exactly what you're saying. Until I had my current DAC, the foot-tapping factor just was not there, particularly on rock (jazz was quite good with my previous DAC). But now I have it all -- rhythm & timing, as the British call it, is up there with the best LP playback that I've heard. Essential: great power conditioning. Digital stands and falls with it, or lack thereof. Analog seems much less dependent on that.

Rhythm & timing used to be a huge problem for Redbook CD 20-25 years ago -- not anymore.

Al, I can see that your system has achieved its Cd playback quality to top notch levels. Just as your system, mine was very satisfying with virtually any Cd I would listen to, and believe me I would listen for endless hours...

[…]
If you're truly happy with your Cd playback, keep it that way and enjoy. However, I can bet on it that since your current system sounds pretty good coming off Cd's, just wait till you drop in an "entry level" TT such as either a Rega or Project, and you'll wonder what the hec is digital doing…

Readers of this thread probably cannot but sympathize with your overflowing enthusiasm (I do), but you are missing the point here. As I stated, I have heard top-notch LP playback elsewhere, not just 'entry-level', and I miss almost nothing on CD compared to that. Yes, overall resolution may be somewhat higher on LP, solo violin sound is more detailed (but only on the very best recordings), and most important of all, saxophone sounds much more natural and convincing on LP (now that's a real difference!) -- but that's it. The idea that music 'flows' better on LP, I just don't hear it.

Yes, I 'wonder what the heck is digital doing' -- almost everything right, that is.
 

Al M.

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Given your impressions I cannot help but wonder, RJ, if something is fundamentally wrong with your digital playback, but looking at your component list I don't have a clue what it might be (you do have a power conditioner, probably a good one (?)). Sorry, no offense intended, but why else do we perceive things so differently?

Peter A., in whose system I have heard the fantastic SME turntable, thinks that my system sounds very natural and unfatiguing -- a great compliment coming from an analog-only person. In fact he stated in the opening post of this thread about my system (emphases added):

"It can produce a sound which is both big and effortless when the recording is of large scale music, and it can sound intimate and personal when the recording is of a smaller scale. In both cases, it disappears, gets to the heart of the performance and portrays the music in an emotional and natural way."

Does that sound soul-less to you?
 

es347

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Hey Big Dog RJ good call on the Rega P3! Believe it or not these are photos of my P3-24 but admittedly on performance enhancing drugs ;)

rega iso 1.JPG rega audiomod 1.JPG rega audiomod 2.JPG rega maestro cart.JPG
 

Bruce B

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hey big dog rj good call on the rega p3! Believe it or not these are photos of my p3-24 but admittedly on performance enhancing drugs ;)


HOLY CRAP!!! :eek:


If someone came up to me today and asked for my opinion about getting back into LP, I would tell them to get something that is upgradeable. You could upgrade the hell out of an LP12 and I know VPI (at one time) had great upgrade options.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Feb 2, 2012
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I can assure you that the LP is NOT a significant improvement, and neither is her prior release (Adele 19) and the Amy Winehouse releases. They are some of the worst vinyl releases I've come across. A real shame as the music is so fabulous.

Hey Jonny, not really mate.

I just got hold of the 180g pressings on both Adele's album 21, and Amy Wine House, deluxe edition (limited), they both cost me around $80 for just two! They are simply stunning and worth every penny spent. Once again I listened through the 2M Black, outstanding! I also listened to both Ray Charles albums last night on the 2M Blue and they were as good, however the 2M black edges with far greater energy.

I came across some pressing labels that are ripping off the industry by transferring digital music via MP3 onto vinyl! Be careful of these labels:
Plain recordings
Jazz Wax
Wax City
Recordings on Vinyl

Recently an artist sued the ass off one of these companies and it shut down because of such fraud.
Certain Lp's are not that great, and this is where digital overtakes it by a far margin. Having said that, I have found that the 180g pressings and other audiophile grade pressings are un-beatable. Especially when it comes to emotionally involving the listener and the experience. It is far engaging than Cd playback, and there is no CD or SACD that I have that can surpass the overall quality of mu current humble Lp collection. My CD/sacd collection stands at 636, and guess what, the last Russel Mallone CD previously purchased due to a glitch on one track, same dam thing happened to the replacement cd as well. Track no. 7, and 5mins & 6secs into playback, the Cd craps itself! It just starts skipping and gets stuck. Although it's a pretty good recording, I have now returned to once again for another replacement. The store manager could only apologize but the good news is that whenever I place a Lp on the turntable and hit the needle, guess what? it plays!

It is now 3:02pm and I am just after my workout. Now I will hit the showers and venture into the stores to buy some lovely special Lp's! I think that is an afternoon well spent...
Cheers Johnny,
RJ
 

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