Nat Audio - giant killers?

bonzo75 · Jan 7, 2017

Anyone has any experience with Silvercore SETs or phonos?

853guy · Jan 7, 2017

morricab said:
You are welcome to take my opinions how you like but I was there and heard the words coming out of his mouth...I just didn't realize what they meant at the time not knowing the history he apparently had with the company...all the more reason to recuse himself from making a review. You are right it is my words only as well but I can tell you that a review like that would normally kill a product and in this case it did not. Why? It is a very good amp and those who got to hear it usually left impressed. I haven't been involved with KR since 2010 but I still think their product is really good and this model was no exception.

A 22% increase in hifi price and you are surprised?? That is kind of funny given the overblown market today. KR has held the line on its prices better than most. The products coming out of Switzerland, with the possible exception of Nagra, are simply absurdly priced (think Soulution, CH Precision, FM Acoustics, darTZeel) despite the high labor costs here and three of those companies essentially came out of nowhere 10 years ago right into the ueber price league...of course rich audiophiles drool on themselves over this gear but does it sound really good? Not really, although I will likely be shouted down here for that. Nagra's relatively cheap Classic series is really good though (their room with Wilson was one of my top 5 this year from the Munich show).

KR used to be one of the more expensive brands out there...now they are middle of the road pricewise. The VA350 cost about 11K now for what you get it is cheap compared to it's competitors. It has custom designed, hand blown tubes for crissakes! It is not out of any old radio hand book but true innovative thinking on the hybrid concept (it is 2/3rds SS...like all KRs). Even a Kronzilla stereo amp is around 20K, which is strictly middle of the road for the current environment. They didn't jack their prices to reflect the trends in the luxury market. I think they adhere much more closely to a traditional materials + labor + margin model rather than a pie-in-the-sky luxury price. The only ones out there who offers as much sound and material for the money is NAT, Ayon SETs, and Aries Cerat (ok, they offer a LOT of material for the money).

I talked with a small German manufacturer, Wall Audio, who told me that he has to raise his prices so that people will take his product "seriously". He makes pretty good stuff too but at the prices he has now elevated his amps to they are playing with some rather tough competition (KR, Ayon, NAT etc.). But it is about price perception and that matters more it seems.

I disagree, with you about calling out the inconsistencies in the review because it can serve others as a warning about hidden agendas and not to dismiss something simply because it got panned when that is out of character with just about every other review ever done on a KR product. Even MF way back when loved the sound of the KR amp he reviewed and then was dismayed that it didn't measure like an ueber SS amp...however, he did back track a bit once his brain "knew" it couldn't sound that good because of the "poor" measurements. You could ask, did KR make a stinker even though it followed a tried and true formula? It is possible but comparison with other KR amps would have quickly revealed this and they probably would have went back to the drawing board, especially after a negative sounding review gives them an excuse to fix a mistake. Years have passed, I stopped representing KR in 2010, went back to reviewing last year and a good friend of mine still has (2) VA350s that still sound great and regularly show a clean pair heels to most other amps when we take them around. I no longer have anything to gain from saying that other than it is true and I try to always be truthful. I don't expect you to take any of this at face value but go look at the reviews for yourself and see how that one review sticks out like a sore thumb.

Hi morricab,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. One of life's great gifts to me has been to find myself convincing people to spend money they don't have on things they don't need. It's a badge that constantly reminds me of my place in the world, and that my opinion isn't really worth much more than the keyboard strokes it takes to articulate it. Trying to keep my opinion firmly ensconced within my experience is a boundary I'm constantly learning to stay within. This is my third post today, and should I type another one, it's entirely possible I'll find myself outside it.

And I agree with you - truthfulness is a wonderful virtue to have, for sure.

But hang on a teeny tiny minute…

You seriously want me to ignore that particular review on KR Audio because it was “out of character with just about every other review ever done on a KR product” (including yours), but then expect me to dismiss Soulution, CH Precision, FM Acoustics and Dartzeel because you say it doesn’t really sound good, when your opinion just happens to be out of character with just about every other review ever done of their products? Don’t see the slight inconsistency there?

Again, appreciate your efforts to be truthful. Your self-awareness could perhaps do with some attention, though. If I’m being honest.

P.S. I know you probably didn't mean to, but comparing the products that come out of Switzerland with the ones that come out of the Czech Republic is one that stretches the limits of credulity. I mean, come on.

853guy · Jan 7, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Anyone has any experience with Silvercore SETs or phonos?

Hi bonzo,

No, but I do know someone who's used their SUT's and likes them a lot.

morricab · Jan 7, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Anyone has any experience with Silvercore SETs or phonos?

Was tempted to try a pair of their 300B monos but in the end didn't pull the trigger. To much of an unknown without getting to hear them first.

Verastarr · Jan 7, 2017

Well this thing took a twist. Im a Mfg. Lets just say my opinion is to trust your own experience only. Reviews from companies that make money from publishing reviews are subject to the same things politicians are from lobbyists. Enough said.
Im going to buy a KR Audio stereo SET. Ill compare it to my WE91A monos. I feel myself attracted to parallel SE, due to the output. My PP amps will stay in my full live experience Maggie room which is for the knock out kung fu punch. KR or SET for that matter will probably never make it to the "big" room. SET amps will stay with the Voxativ full range, open baffle type speakers in the "small" room. Im kind of liking the Loesch designs as well just from reading.
M

morricab · Jan 7, 2017

853guy said:
Hi morricab,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. One of life's great gifts to me has been to find myself convincing people to spend money they don't have on things they don't need. It's a badge that constantly reminds me of my place in the world, and that my opinion isn't really worth much more than the keyboard strokes it takes to articulate it. Trying to keep my opinion firmly ensconced within my experience is a boundary I'm constantly learning to stay within. This is my third post today, and should I type another one, it's entirely possible I'll find myself outside it.

And I agree with you - truthfulness is a wonderful virtue to have, for sure.

But hang on a teeny tiny minute…

You seriously want me to ignore that particular review on KR Audio because it was “out of character with just about every other review ever done on a KR product” (including yours), but then expect me to dismiss Soulution, CH Precision, FM Acoustics and Dartzeel because you say it doesn’t really sound good, when your opinion just happens to be out of character with just about every other review ever done of their products? Don’t see the slight inconsistency there?

Again, appreciate your efforts to be truthful. Your self-awareness could perhaps do with some attention, though. If I’m being honest.

I find your comments about my self-awareness in light of this exchange a bit...well, presumptuous and slightly offensive. Just so you are aware...

Do I see a slight inconsistency there? No because, I think you will find I was mainly referring to the luxury pricing structure of those particular Swiss products and what I think of the sound quality relative to that price. Also, my opinion is based on multiple show and showroom hearings of these various products and not a formal review...it is an opinion based on some experience with those products but not, perhaps, in optimized settings that might make a significant difference. I have not put anything down about them on Positive Feedback, just some musings here.

morricab · Jan 7, 2017

Verastarr said:
Well this thing took a twist. Im a Mfg. Lets just say my opinion is to trust your own experience only. Reviews from companies that make money from publishing reviews are subject to the same things politicians are from lobbyists. Enough said.
Im going to buy a KR Audio stereo SET. Ill compare it to my WE91A monos. I feel myself attracted to parallel SE, due to the output. My PP amps will stay in my full live experience Maggie room which is for the knock out kung fu punch. KR or SET for that matter will probably never make it to the "big" room. SET amps will stay with the Voxativ full range, open baffle type speakers in the "small" room. Im kind of liking the Loesch designs as well just from reading.
M

Just curious, how big is your big room?

morricab · Jan 7, 2017

Verastarr said:
I can say the Symmetrical in my rig has such realism and presence that I consider Dejan nothing short of Sorcerer. Ive got absolutely zero issue driving the speakers with the dual 805 DHT amps. The only issue was one OA2 tube does not work which I believe to be causing unbalanced VC gain until almost 100% volume. Good thing the Lamp has VC as well, but I need it fixed. Ive got a good tech here who can repair without schematic. Hopefully he will get it. Im not going Solid State because im not that guy at this point. My passion lies in the horribly measuring, innaccurate, inefficient, colored, harmonic, Vacuum Tube. I cherish my tubes. SS will be relegated to bass duty only. Ive also got a second rig that is set up for SE. Pureaudioproject Trio 15 Voxativ. Right now its WE91A clone monos. 8W and no problems except dynamic bass at this point, but ill correct that. Ill take a look at those other amps. Vitus is a good call if I was SS motivated.

Yeah, I like my Plasma a lot. It breathes with the music.

853guy · Jan 7, 2017

morricab said:
I find your comments about my self-awareness in light of this exchange a bit...well, presumptuous and slightly offensive. Just so you are aware...

Do I see a slight inconsistency there? No because, I think you will find I was mainly referring to the luxury pricing structure of those particular Swiss products and what I think of the sound quality relative to that price. Also, my opinion is based on multiple show and showroom hearings of these various products and not a formal review...it is an opinion based on some experience with those products but not, perhaps, in optimized settings that might make a significant difference. I have not put anything down about them on Positive Feedback, just some musings here.

Sound quality relative to the price was the exact same point the 6moons review highlighted apropos the KR Audio. Why? Because whether you're spending 1K or 100K it's all relative.

Morricab, to me, I believe the inconsistencies above I've attempted to point out are worth debating on a forum such as this when one reviewer feels the need to denigrate the work of another when the issue is only one of perspective and opinion. Beyond that though, once issues of personhood and feelings of offence begin to be taken into consideration, further debate usually serves to only intensify those feelings, and I regret doing that. Please accept my apologies for offending you - I'll refrain from posting any further, and wish you the best for the rest of your weekend.

853guy

Verastarr · Jan 7, 2017

By "big", I mean my powerful system. I am new to SET because I have until recently considered them weak with no heft or dynamic slam. I decided to trade our cables for a pair of WE91A clones from a client, so i could make sure my cable designs were good for all system types and not to exclude the SET crowd. It gave me good insight into the flow and nuance of SET. My "small" room means the 8WPC rig. The big room was 620WPC @8, yet i just pulled out the 500W dual mono amp for the subs and replaced with a 50Wpc class A SS that absolutely smears its face in the dirt as far as woofer grip and musicality, even though its for sub 200Hz duty. That low freq still has tone. So the Db output in my big room which isnt really big per se (22 x 18 ft w 9ft ceiling on a gradual slope) rivals live sound with percussive dynamics where a kick drum permeates and seizes the air in the room. I do not listen to symphonic music so I cant properly assess its ability to handle complex movements or whatever you listen for with such. The big rig is beyond listening for freq resp, or image, since thats been all there for a while. I turn off my ears for the most part and feel for emotion using my heart. May sound silly but music is about emotional connection for me not about specification. Analysis of sound is for the work part of what I do but for enjoyment, I lay back and simply feel the connection and relax. So "big" means powerful with dynamic, startling impact that makes people giggle like kids. The other "small" is for nuance and another kind of experience that I am currently becoming familiar with and optimizing to bring it to the leading edge of its particular style.
Im having tons of fun doing this !
M

bonzo75 · Jan 7, 2017

Wow that's a big room. Maggies are good, also try to listen to the restored Apogee Duettas/Divas for that kind of room. Lissnr in LongIsland/NY has an excellent room with a great valve set up for that. The kick drums are amazing.

Verastarr · Jan 7, 2017

Are Apogees still made ? I kind of need to stick to companies still in business for purposes of resale, though im sure they are incredible. I dont feel im lacking whatsoever in the speaker dept at this point, but ill keep my feelers out for Apogee demos. I built outboard crossovers for the 3.7i using all the new Clarity Cap MR series and Goertz foil inductors with direct connection to Verastarr pure silver foils from amp all the way to panels in the Maggie. Next step is trying an active crossover 4 way quad amp setup. I just got a custom 3 way vacuum tube crossover for the Maggies and ill cross over the subs with an active digital Xover/EQ combo. Im interested to see how lively things get without passive xover. My room is not that big when you consider the Mags are 6 feet off the front wall and my seating position about 4 off the back.
Cheers
M

bonzo75 · Jan 7, 2017

Verastarr said:
Are Apogees still made ? I kind of need to stick to companies still in business for purposes of resale, though im sure they are incredible. I dont feel im lacking whatsoever in the speaker dept at this point, but ill keep my feelers out for Apogee demos. I built outboard crossovers for the 3.7i using all the new Clarity Cap MR series and Goertz foil inductors with direct connection to Verastarr pure silver foils from amp all the way to panels in the Maggie. Next step is trying an active crossover 4 way quad amp setup. I just got a custom 3 way vacuum tube crossover for the Maggies and ill cross over the subs with an active digital Xover/EQ combo. Im interested to see how lively things get without passive xover. My room is not that big when you consider the Mags are 6 feet off the front wall and my seating position about 4 off the back.
Cheers
M

Apogees are much better now, if restored properly. A guy named Graz bought the apogee brand years ago and makes newer ribbons. His bass ribbon especially is considered much better. The Apogees are easier to drive than before, you get upgraded crossover components, much better frames. Rich Murry in the US restores them really well, and as for resale, there is an apogee cult about that picks them up. Though restored ones from Rich or Henk are rarely going to hit the market. Pay Long Island a visit and see. Should be easy for you. I visited him from London. He is one of Rich's customers and also owns the Lampi Big 7. I took my KR 242s along with me, he heard them and later placed an order for those tubes which he now has.

Zero000 · Jan 7, 2017

I think the reason Apogees are so good at kick drums, and they are amazing at rendering them, is that the bass panel itself is extremely similar in nature to a kick drum.

Another great speaker for rendering kick drums is this one. Just a brilliant speaker one of the planet's best IMHO: http://www.audionec.com/answer.html

bonzo75 · Jan 7, 2017

Verastarr said:
Are Apogees still made ? I kind of need to stick to companies still in business for purposes of resale, though im sure they are incredible. I dont feel im lacking whatsoever in the speaker dept at this point, but ill keep my feelers out for Apogee demos. I built outboard crossovers for the 3.7i using all the new Clarity Cap MR series and Goertz foil inductors with direct connection to Verastarr pure silver foils from amp all the way to panels in the Maggie. Next step is trying an active crossover 4 way quad amp setup. I just got a custom 3 way vacuum tube crossover for the Maggies and ill cross over the subs with an active digital Xover/EQ combo. Im interested to see how lively things get without passive xover. My room is not that big when you consider the Mags are 6 feet off the front wall and my seating position about 4 off the back.
Cheers
M

Verastarr, since you don't listen to much of symphonic, is it rock or electronic? If you listen more to midrange, also check out the Analysis Audio, which are modded in the US. You could hear them in South Carolina. Beautiful mids. And easier to drive than both Apogees and Maggies, so SETs work better. In fact, the UK Analysis distributor uses NAT transmitters.

Verastarr · Jan 7, 2017

I guess I should be more specific. I develop and sell Magnepan mods. I think they are one of the most misunderstood speakers in the market. There are tons of them out there, so mod sales are prolific and more importantly, hugely appreciated. I will however take note of the brands that were pointed out and look for them at shows or if Im in Long Island vistiting the Lamp guys. As far as Kick drum, I just used that for reference to describe the dynamics of the big rig. Its not how I judge loudspeakers per se. More important to me is presence and realism. Removing passive crossover is supposed to make speakers more responsive, so I will test that and see how much more sensitive the Mags get. Soon ill have wooden horns in the small rig to see how I like them in the open baffles. Thanks for all the feedback and input. Ill keep you guys posted on my KR experience should it happen..
Cheers
M

bonzo75 · Jan 7, 2017

Verastarr said:
I guess I should be more specific. I develop and sell Magnepan mods. I think they are one of the most misunderstood speakers in the market. There are tons of them out there, so mod sales are prolific and more importantly, hugely appreciated. I will however take note of the brands that were pointed out and look for them at shows or if Im in Long Island vistiting the Lamp guys. As far as Kick drum, I just used that for reference to describe the dynamics of the big rig. Its not how I judge loudspeakers per se. More important to me is presence and realism. Removing passive crossover is supposed to make speakers more responsive, so I will test that and see how much more sensitive the Mags get. Soon ill have wooden horns in the small rig to see how I like them in the open baffles. Thanks for all the feedback and input. Ill keep you guys posted on my KR experience should it happen..
Cheers
M

Hi yes, always wish I get to listen to some well modded Maggies, since the Apogees and Analysis I liked are all modded

Verastarr · Jan 13, 2017

Well Dejan finally responded with Schematics, but in typical fashion (just like my Generators) the schematic is of another version of the Symmetrical that does not use the tube that I need to repair... lol... sheesh.. unreal.. It almost seems like every NAT piece is a one off. Like they just use whats on hand or what they want to test out or something. Ive compared photos inside the Symmetrical and they nearly all use different parts.
So I bought a KR Audio VA-300 with 842 VHD tubes in it just to get my feet wet. I've already talked to Marek about replacing OPT's to bump it up to 20W of the 320... Lets see how she sounds..

christoph · Jan 13, 2017

Congratulation on the "little" KR.
Their amps are really something very special.
I think their VA 350i is one of the very best amps around. And if you factor in the used price, it's almost too good to be true.
I'm pretty confident, that you will love that little VA 300 a lot.

Verastarr · Jan 13, 2017

christoph said:
Congratulation on the "little" KR.
Their amps are really something very special.
I think their VA 350i is one of the very best amps around. And if you factor in the used price, it's almost too good to be true.
I'm pretty confident, that you will love that little VA 300 a lot.

Thanks Christoph. I look forward to listening. It should give me a feel for the KR "Vibe". Then perhaps I tweak it a little.. ;-)

M

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