Nat Audio - giant killers?

Verastarr

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Hi Guys, Its Mike Powell from Verastarr. I just found this thread, as I really like the NAT products. I find that support or service info or even email replies from the company is excruciating at best.. I have a pair of Generator monos with 805s and a Symmetrical linestage.
I use a balanced Big 7 Lampizator with Golden Gate upgrades. Modified Maggie 3.7i and class A SS amplified dual 15 subs.
My system has never sounded so good, although ive not tried KR. I know them as we buy tubes, and ive got all KR in the Lamp. (45 and 5u4)
I really like the NAT sonics and they are a real value secondhand, but im a stickler for support and im starting to sour. Perhaps KR will be the next stop..
Anyone have a print for the 805 Generators or Symmetrical ?

Cheers
M
 

bonzo75

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Hi Guys, Its Mike Powell from Verastarr. I just found this thread, as I really like the NAT products. I find that support or service info or even email replies from the company is excruciating at best.. I have a pair of Generator monos with 805s and a Symmetrical linestage.
I use a balanced Big 7 Lampizator with Golden Gate upgrades. Modified Maggie 3.7i and class A SS amplified dual 15 subs.
My system has never sounded so good, although ive not tried KR. I know them as we buy tubes, and ive got all KR in the Lamp. (45 and 5u4)
I really like the NAT sonics and they are a real value secondhand, but im a stickler for support and im starting to sour. Perhaps KR will be the next stop..
Anyone have a print for the 805 Generators or Symmetrical ?

Cheers
M

Mike, where are you located? I would lose the KR 45 for KR 242, or the special Lampi 45s followed by KR PX25. We have done a lot of valve shootouts here

Try the NAT Transmitter. Maggies require some power. Dpod4 on audioshark preferred the Luxman m800 bridged to Ch precision and Vitus on his Maggies, and Joel of 6 moons prefers those Luxman followed by Ayon Orthos (which I have on sale, 300w triode, 400 pentode) on Maggie 20.7 compared to other amps he has tried. I haven't compared on Maggies, but those Luxmans are great value in the used market and giant killers, and superbly stable. I preferred them in all respects to Ypsilon Aelius and Viola Symphony.

Contact Florian on the forum, he might have prints for those NATs.
 

Verastarr

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Thanks Bonzo, ill check the shootout. I wonder if it mirrors my experience. I tried FullMusicPX25 that it came with but too rolled off and euphonic in my rig. Ill look at Lux but ive kind of got a love for Eastern European design. My maggies are Biamped and ive high passed them at 120 to leave brute strength to the CODA pure Class A SS amp which it does with aplomb. The Maggies cleared up when I pulled out the lows and are no problem whatsoever to drive by the NAT 120W Generator. I have no issue with the sonics im simply starting to dislike the company. I like to form relationships with my brands, especially if the designer is still alive. Dejan knows ive got the equipment and that I requested support. Ill say no more. Eunice and KR are very responsive and this thread leads me to believe it may sound better.
I am, however not willing to give up on NAT yet. Ill try Florian. Thanks ...
We are in ATL.

Cheers
M
 

bonzo75

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Thanks Bonzo, ill check the shootout. I wonder if it mirrors my experience. I tried FullMusicPX25 that it came with but too rolled off and euphonic in my rig. Ill look at Lux but ive kind of got a love for Eastern European design. My maggies are Biamped and ive high passed them at 120 to leave brute strength to the CODA pure Class A SS amp which it does with aplomb. The Maggies cleared up when I pulled out the lows and are no problem whatsoever to drive by the NAT 120W Generator. I have no issue with the sonics im simply starting to dislike the company. I like to form relationships with my brands, especially if the designer is still alive. Dejan knows ive got the equipment and that I requested support. Ill say no more. Eunice and KR are very responsive and this thread leads me to believe it may sound better.
I am, however not willing to give up on NAT yet. Ill try Florian. Thanks ...
We are in ATL.

Cheers
M

Px25s from different companies will be different. The KR 242s exceed all valves by a significant margin on all fronts provided their gain matches, which it does with the B7, but some GGs have a gain problem. The Lampi 45 only a few were made so not easily available. Hence the KR PX25 and the PX4, which are much more dynamic and bassy then the more laid back KR 45.

I love the NATs but prefer higher current SS on ribbons even for mids, though this experience is based on various restored apogee auditions and not Maggies, and where I strongly disagree with Morricab, who will love what you are doing.
 

Verastarr

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Now that I think about it, they are PX4. With what ive got, If I get any more bass im cooked. I already cut it as it is. If anything it could be tamed on top, but more bass a bad idea. Dynamics might be interesting, as the VC on my Lamp cant seem to drive the Generators that well, hence the Symmetrical. I like the pace and flow of tubes with something as quick as Maggies. Its a great match imho. Flow and pace with ability to be quicker than traditional speakers. Maybe ill try the SS on mids/highs and hear a 50W amp throttle the Maggies due to its current. Its worth a try. I dont believe Maggies need 500W as ive powered them with a 60W KT88 stereo integrated.
They are very, very and one more very hard to get dialed in perfect. Ive spent the last 5 years or so learning their intricate nature. My opinion is you must remove the fuse plate and posts and use high grade posts with direct wiring. I also think dual subs are necessary. Therin lies the rub. Integrating the subs is an art form. Once dialed, its pure magic.
All the best !

Mike
 

bonzo75

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Oh I always prefer a pre rather than running Lampi direct, and if your gain is right now not matching you are in for big jump with the symmetrical. Fyi, I prefer the utopia to the symmetrical if you get it in the used market (unlikely in the US), but symmetrical is very good.

As for the amps, I think high current class A SS is required to wake Apogees up, and low impedance control
 

morricab

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Oh I always prefer a pre rather than running Lampi direct, and if your gain is right now not matching you are in for big jump with the symmetrical. Fyi, I prefer the utopia to the symmetrical if you get it in the used market (unlikely in the US), but symmetrical is very good.

As for the amps, I think high current class A SS is required to wake Apogees up, and low impedance control

If i remember correctly, Florian preferred both the Plasma and Symmetrical to the Utopia. He told Or he regretted selling his Plasma. It is a great sounding preamp as I can no attest to. It goes toe to toe with the 20k class.
 

bonzo75

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If i remember correctly, Florian preferred both the Plasma and Symmetrical to the Utopia. He told Or he regretted selling his Plasma. It is a great sounding preamp as I can no attest to. It goes toe to toe with the 20k class.

I haven't heard the plasma, but the UK NAT/analysis dealer had both, and the symmetrical was darker while the utopia was cleaner and more dynamic, better highs. I heard both in that system. Utopia was also Dejan's all out effort at that time. Marc bought that Utopia, and I am not sure but he heard the Symmetrical as well
 

morricab

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Hi Guys, Its Mike Powell from Verastarr. I just found this thread, as I really like the NAT products. I find that support or service info or even email replies from the company is excruciating at best.. I have a pair of Generator monos with 805s and a Symmetrical linestage.
I use a balanced Big 7 Lampizator with Golden Gate upgrades. Modified Maggie 3.7i and class A SS amplified dual 15 subs.
My system has never sounded so good, although ive not tried KR. I know them as we buy tubes, and ive got all KR in the Lamp. (45 and 5u4)
I really like the NAT sonics and they are a real value secondhand, but im a stickler for support and im starting to sour. Perhaps KR will be the next stop..
Anyone have a print for the 805 Generators or Symmetrical ?

Cheers
M

Hi Mike
I have not heard this push/pull amp from NAT but I had similar issues with response from the company...consider yourself on your own and find a good technician.

Personally, I prefer SET and they can sound just as powerful as PP and have better continuousness and flow. Obviously, I don't recommend a 10 watt SET for your Maggie's but something 30+ watts will work better than you might imagine. As of right now if you are thinking SET at all look at Aries Cerat (the new 60 watt Diana Forte would be awesome on ribbons). KR and NAT are still solid choices as is Ayon but to get 50 watts from Ayon is pricey.

Comparison of Aries Cerat Diana to KR VA350i showed clear victory for Aries Cerat...and the VA350 is a VERY good amp. The VA350 dispatched my NAT Symbiosis without too much difficulty.

My current Ayon Crossfire III is equal to the VA350 on my speakers. The Vulcan Evos I have now for review are somewhat better than the Crossfire...as they should be for more than double the price!

The NAT Se2se and Transmitter are also both very good and transparent and uncolored. The older ones have reliability issues not sure about Transmitters. I would put though sound in KR Class but probably behind Aries Cerat.
 

bonzo75

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The NAT Transmitter will be much different to the Symbiosis, and the Kronzilla will be much different to the VA350 (which 6 moons has been pretty harsh on, and he has been on KR as such), and The Aries 60w amps will be different to the Diana 30w integrated. So, without making these compares, it is impossible to say. Based on guesstimates, I think Vitus Class A SM102 will be the best.
 
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Verastarr

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I can say the Symmetrical in my rig has such realism and presence that I consider Dejan nothing short of Sorcerer. Ive got absolutely zero issue driving the speakers with the dual 805 DHT amps. The only issue was one OA2 tube does not work which I believe to be causing unbalanced VC gain until almost 100% volume. Good thing the Lamp has VC as well, but I need it fixed. Ive got a good tech here who can repair without schematic. Hopefully he will get it. Im not going Solid State because im not that guy at this point. My passion lies in the horribly measuring, innaccurate, inefficient, colored, harmonic, Vacuum Tube. I cherish my tubes. SS will be relegated to bass duty only. Ive also got a second rig that is set up for SE. Pureaudioproject Trio 15 Voxativ. Right now its WE91A clone monos. 8W and no problems except dynamic bass at this point, but ill correct that. Ill take a look at those other amps. Vitus is a good call if I was SS motivated.
 

morricab

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The NAT Transmitter will be much different to the Symbiosis, and the Kronzilla will be much different to the VA350 (which 6 moons has been pretty harsh on, and he has been on KR as such), and The Aries 60w amps will be different to the Diana 30w integrated. So, without making these compares, it is impossible to say. Based on guesstimates, I think Vitus Class A SM102 will be the best.

You are right about the NATs and I have said as much. You are wrong about the KRs though and I have compared, more than once and in my own system. If you read the six moons "review" carefully you will realize it was a hatchet job from a disgruntled reviewer. He used similar descriptions previously when he praised the VA320 but painted it negative when he described the VA350. I can tell you those two amps sound very similar and one was praised and one was slammed for having the same traits. I know he was disgruntled because he complained to me that KR would not sell him 300B tubes at accommodation pricing.

As to Diana vs. Diana a Forte, well I am going on Stavros's word that Forte is better and he has been right so far.

Virus SM102? Aren't thes like 100k? I heard them at shows and they sounded dark, like a lot of Class A SS. Diana Forte will almost certainly sound more dynamic.
 

853guy

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You are right about the NATs and I have said as much. You are wrong about the KRs though and I have compared, more than once and in my own system. If you read the six moons "review" carefully you will realize it was a hatchet job from a disgruntled reviewer. He used similar descriptions previously when he praised the VA320 but painted it negative when he described the VA350. I can tell you those two amps sound very similar and one was praised and one was slammed for having the same traits. I know he was disgruntled because he complained to me that KR would not sell him 300B tubes at accommodation pricing.

Hi morricab,

Were you the KR Audio distributor at the time of the review?
 

KeithR

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Hi Mike
I have not heard this push/pull amp from NAT but I had similar issues with response from the company...consider yourself on your own and find a good technician.

Personally, I prefer SET and they can sound just as powerful as PP and have better continuousness and flow. Obviously, I don't recommend a 10 watt SET for your Maggie's but something 30+ watts will work better than you might imagine.

Maggie 3.7s are 4 ohms - how many watts are you really getting out of a 30 watt SET amplifier? probably half.

Kronzilla measurements agree below? at 20hz into 8 ohms, only 32 watts, 25 watts across the spectrum into 4 ohms.

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/aus...nzilla_sx_amplifier_review_and_test_lores.pdf

Also at power, KR was pushing 6% distortion levels.
 

morricab

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Hi morricab,

Were you the KR Audio distributor at the time of the review?

Swiss exclusive dealer but yes I was affiliated with KR at that time.
 

morricab

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Maggie 3.7s are 4 ohms - how many watts are you really getting out of a 30 watt SET amplifier? probably half.

Kronzilla measurements agree below? at 20hz into 8 ohms, only 32 watts, 25 watts across the spectrum into 4 ohms.

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/aus...nzilla_sx_amplifier_review_and_test_lores.pdf

Also at power, KR was pushing 6% distortion levels.

You are thinking about it the wrong way. Number one most of the time you will coasting around a watt or two or less and peaks will be higher but the distortion will be masked. You won't hear it. Also the dynamic capability is not well represented by the static measurements. Peter van Willenswaard demonstrated this in some articles for stereophile many years ago that SETs could generate many times their static power in bursts.

Finally, 6% of mostly 2nd harmonic will be inaudible on music peaks where it is likely to be generated. At 1 watt the distortion is plenty low enough to be inaudible because of its low order nature.

True it might not allow lease breaking levels in a large room, I never claimed that. This what's best forum not what's loudest forum...although I strongly get the impression that is what people really mean here when I read a lot of posts.
 

853guy

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Swiss exclusive dealer but yes I was affiliated with KR at that time.

Hi morricab,

Ah, OK.

So just before we go too far down the rabbit hole here, can I ask:

Is it true that you contacted 6moons directly via email for a review of the VA350, rather than the reviewer contacting you? If so, given you were the exclusive dealer and stood to benefit from a positive review of the product in question, would it perhaps not have been more true to say you had a vested interest in obtaining a positive review, rather than the somewhat vague statement you had “compared (them) more than once and in (your) own system”?

Also, in the email you sent, you state the sound of the VA350 “is very similar to the Kronzilla, much more so than the other smaller models VA320 and VA340”, which seems to contradict somewhat your statement above that “…he praised the VA320 but painted it negative when he described the VA350. I can tell you those two amps sound very similar”. Which is it?

I understand distributing products is full of pitfalls, and attempting to navigate the world of online reviewing can be perilous.

But just before I draw any conclusions for myself on the reputation of the 6moons reviewer who performed the “hatchet job” - especially in regard to one, who, from my perspective, has attempted to make explicit the site’s ethics in the form of a disclaimer, a detailed reviewing policy and a disclosure of financial interests - I think it’s helpful to ask whether any disgruntlement may lie with the party who has been both an ex-reviewer and an ex-distributor of the manufacturer in question.

Your thoughts?
 

morricab

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Maggie 3.7s are 4 ohms - how many watts are you really getting out of a 30 watt SET amplifier? probably half.

Kronzilla measurements agree below? at 20hz into 8 ohms, only 32 watts, 25 watts across the spectrum into 4 ohms.

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/aus...nzilla_sx_amplifier_review_and_test_lores.pdf

Also at power, KR was pushing 6% distortion levels.

Hi morricab,

Ah, OK.

So just before we go too far down the rabbit hole here, can I ask:

Is it true that you contacted 6moons directly via email for a review of the VA350, rather than the reviewer contacting you? If so, given you were the exclusive dealer and stood to benefit from a positive review of the product in question, would it perhaps not have been more true to say you had a vested interest in obtaining a positive review, rather than the somewhat vague statement you had “compared (them) more than once and in (your) own system”?

Also, in the email you sent, you state the sound of the VA350 “is very similar to the Kronzilla, much more so than the other smaller models VA320 and VA340”, which seems to contradict somewhat your statement above that “…he praised the VA320 but painted it negative when he described the VA350. I can tell you those two amps sound very similar”. Which is it?

I understand distributing products is full of pitfalls, and attempting to navigate the world of online reviewing can be perilous.

But just before I draw any conclusions for myself on the reputation of the 6moons reviewer who performed the “hatchet job” - especially in regard to one, who, from my perspective, has attempted to make explicit the site’s ethics in the form of a disclaimer, a detailed reviewing policy and a disclosure of financial interests - I think it’s helpful to ask whether any disgruntlement may lie with the party who has been both an ex-reviewer and an ex-distributor of the manufacturer in question.

Your thoughts?

A lot address there and a lot of assumptions. However, yes, I contacted 6 moons about their interest in reviewing the amp. If he had said no then that would have been that. He said yes and I took him an amp. He criticized the lack of packaging but I took him the amp unpacked, obviously not what I do with a customer but he chose to pick that nit.

We sat down and talked when I brought the amp over and he voiced his "difficulties" getting KR 300B tubes, and how difficult Eunice Kron was to work with (I had to disagree because I had a good relationship with her) and so on with a rather negative tone. I briefly considered pulling the amp out of the review because my spider sense was tingling a bit but I didn't heed it and went ahead because I was sure of the product and previous reviews of KR products on 6 moons were very positive.

Now as to the sound of the amps. All KRs have a similar "family " sound. The input and driver circuitry for the VA320, VA340, VA350 and Kronzilla are all essentially the same. The main difference is the output tubes and power supply robustness. This means there is some flavoring difference but it is more in degree rather than fundamentally different sound. Does VA350 lean more towards the Kronzilla sound? Yes, but you would not mistake any KR amp for any other brand. There are much more similarities than differences. A positive review for the VA320 and a negative for the VA350, using very similar descriptors but spun differently, is not very logical once you know the brand. Also the VA340 and Kronzilla were positively reviewed by Marja and Henk on the same site. Do you really think the VA350 is the odd man out sonically?? It remained in the product lineup despite the review and offers perhaps the best value in KRs lineup in terms of power, sonics and price.

We compared it to my NAT Symbiosis, it was better, and my Ayon Crossfire III, it was a tie. Other comparisons have been done and it was only handily beaten by the Aries Cerat Diana on non-horn speakers.

Did I have an interest in a positive review? Naturally; however, that doesn't mean I am wrong about my facts. Bad mouthing the owner of the company's product you are going to review and complaining about not getting 300Bs for accommodation pricing doesn't set a good tone for beginning a review.
 

853guy

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A lot address there and a lot of assumptions. However, yes, I contacted 6 moons about their interest in reviewing the amp. If he had said no then that would have been that. He said yes and I took him an amp. He criticized the lack of packaging but I took him the amp unpacked, obviously not what I do with a customer but he chose to pick that nit.

We sat down and talked when I brought the amp over and he voiced his "difficulties" getting KR 300B tubes, and how difficult Eunice Kron was to work with (I had to disagree because I had a good relationship with her) and so on with a rather negative tone. I briefly considered pulling the amp out of the review because my spider sense was tingling a bit but I didn't heed it and went ahead because I was sure of the product and previous reviews of KR products on 6 moons were very positive.

Now as to the sound of the amps. All KRs have a similar "family " sound. The input and driver circuitry for the VA320, VA340, VA350 and Kronzilla are all essentially the same. The main difference is the output tubes and power supply robustness. This means there is some flavoring difference but it is more in degree rather than fundamentally different sound. Does VA350 lean more towards the Kronzilla sound? Yes, but you would not mistake any KR amp for any other brand. There are much more similarities than differences. A positive review for the VA320 and a negative for the VA350, using very similar descriptors but spun differently, is not very logical once you know the brand. Also the VA340 and Kronzilla were positively reviewed by Marja and Henk on the same site. Do you really think the VA350 is the odd man out sonically?? It remained in the product lineup despite the review and offers perhaps the best value in KRs lineup in terms of power, sonics and price.

We compared it to my NAT Symbiosis, it was better, and my Ayon Crossfire III, it was a tie. Other comparisons have been done and it was only handily beaten by the Aries Cerat Diana on non-horn speakers.

Did I have an interest in a positive review? Naturally; however, that doesn't mean I am wrong about my facts. Bad mouthing the owner of the company's product you are going to review and complaining about not getting 300Bs for accommodation pricing doesn't set a good tone for beginning a review.

Hi morricab,

Like I say, I understand online reviewing is a perilous business, and that distributing a product and attempting to secure a review from a reputable source can be equally problematic. Certainly, in your case, as someone who has done both, I’m sure you appreciate this more than most.

In the end, however, it’s just your opinion as an ex-distributor/reviewer versus his. That he saw things differently and/or had a different experience with a manufacturer is not surprising, even omitting the not insignificant 1900 € increase in retail price (a rise of 22%) between delivery and published review. Disagreements on value and sonics are to be expected, as we here on this forum continue to testify to, even when the manufacturer in question has a reputation of considerable substance.

And while bad mouthing the owner of the company’s product prior to the review serves little purpose, bad mouthing the reviewer for sharing his opinion and calling the review a “hatchet job” serves little purpose either. Not being privy to the private discussions you had, all we have are the words he wrote, and the ones you have. The Internet bestows upon us the ability to sometimes believe our opinions have an inversely proportionate weight to the effort it takes to type them out. I appreciate many of your contributions here, morricab, but your opinions of other reviewers I’ll be taking with more than a grain of salt.
 

morricab

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Hi morricab,

Like I say, I understand online reviewing is a perilous business, and that distributing a product and attempting to secure a review from a reputable source can be equally problematic. Certainly, in your case, as someone who has done both, I’m sure you appreciate this more than most.

In the end, however, it’s just your opinion as an ex-distributor/reviewer versus his. That he saw things differently and/or had a different experience with a manufacturer is not surprising, even omitting the not insignificant 1900 € increase in retail price (a rise of 22%) between delivery and published review. Disagreements on value and sonics are to be expected, as we here on this forum continue to testify to, even when the manufacturer in question has a reputation of considerable substance.

And while bad mouthing the owner of the company’s product prior to the review serves little purpose, bad mouthing the reviewer for sharing his opinion and calling the review a “hatchet job” serves little purpose either. Not being privy to the private discussions you had, all we have are the words he wrote, and the ones you have. The Internet bestows upon us the ability to sometimes believe our opinions have an inversely proportionate weight to the effort it takes to type them out. I appreciate many of your contributions here, morricab, but your opinions of other reviewers I’ll be taking with more than a grain of salt.

You are welcome to take my opinions how you like but I was there and heard the words coming out of his mouth...I just didn't realize what they meant at the time not knowing the history he apparently had with the company...all the more reason to recuse himself from making a review. You are right it is my words only as well but I can tell you that a review like that would normally kill a product and in this case it did not. Why? It is a very good amp and those who got to hear it usually left impressed. I haven't been involved with KR since 2010 but I still think their product is really good and this model was no exception.

A 22% increase in hifi price and you are surprised?? That is kind of funny given the overblown market today. KR has held the line on its prices better than most. The products coming out of Switzerland, with the possible exception of Nagra, are simply absurdly priced (think Soulution, CH Precision, FM Acoustics, darTZeel) despite the high labor costs here and three of those companies essentially came out of nowhere 10 years ago right into the ueber price league...of course rich audiophiles drool on themselves over this gear but does it sound really good? Not really, although I will likely be shouted down here for that. Nagra's relatively cheap Classic series is really good though (their room with Wilson was one of my top 5 this year from the Munich show).

KR used to be one of the more expensive brands out there...now they are middle of the road pricewise. The VA350 cost about 11K now for what you get it is cheap compared to it's competitors. It has custom designed, hand blown tubes for crissakes! It is not out of any old radio hand book but true innovative thinking on the hybrid concept (it is 2/3rds SS...like all KRs). Even a Kronzilla stereo amp is around 20K, which is strictly middle of the road for the current environment. They didn't jack their prices to reflect the trends in the luxury market. I think they adhere much more closely to a traditional materials + labor + margin model rather than a pie-in-the-sky luxury price. The only ones out there who offers as much sound and material for the money is NAT, Ayon SETs, and Aries Cerat (ok, they offer a LOT of material for the money).

I talked with a small German manufacturer, Wall Audio, who told me that he has to raise his prices so that people will take his product "seriously". He makes pretty good stuff too but at the prices he has now elevated his amps to they are playing with some rather tough competition (KR, Ayon, NAT etc.). But it is about price perception and that matters more it seems.

I disagree, with you about calling out the inconsistencies in the review because it can serve others as a warning about hidden agendas and not to dismiss something simply because it got panned when that is out of character with just about every other review ever done on a KR product. Even MF way back when loved the sound of the KR amp he reviewed and then was dismayed that it didn't measure like an ueber SS amp...however, he did back track a bit once his brain "knew" it couldn't sound that good because of the "poor" measurements. You could ask, did KR make a stinker even though it followed a tried and true formula? It is possible but comparison with other KR amps would have quickly revealed this and they probably would have went back to the drawing board, especially after a negative sounding review gives them an excuse to fix a mistake. Years have passed, I stopped representing KR in 2010, went back to reviewing last year and a good friend of mine still has (2) VA350s that still sound great and regularly show a clean pair heels to most other amps when we take them around. I no longer have anything to gain from saying that other than it is true and I try to always be truthful. I don't expect you to take any of this at face value but go look at the reviews for yourself and see how that one review sticks out like a sore thumb.
 

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