Nat Audio - giant killers?

spiritofmusic

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Bonzo, "Old School" is a phrase, hence the capitals. Old, or old, amounts to the same thing.
 

bonzo75

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I am well aware of that
 

KeithR

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are the NATs more full bodied sounding than the Audions?

I've heard the Audions extensively, including in my own room (I'm a local friend of 213Cobra, Spirit)
 

bonzo75

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are the NATs more full bodied sounding than the Audions?

I've heard the Audions extensively, including in my own room (I'm a local friend of 213Cobra, Spirit)

from what I have heard of NATs they are very full bodied, unlike ARC or Jadis. I have heard the Audions in Spirit's system, and I would guess so, but I haven't heard the NATs in his system yet. Will try next week
 

spiritofmusic

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KeithR, I've moved from the Audion Black Shadows w/Quattro dual mono linestage w/factory mods, to the Nats.
In fact the most immediately noticeable change for the better is what you've mentioned. Yes, the Nats are more full bodied. Or in my words, more tonally saturated. In a big way.
I loved/still love my Audion sound, moving from the sparser Hovland sound I was using at the time, getting swept up in the seductive 845 sound, enhanced further w/superlative Elrog 845s, and then maxing out on transparency w/the Quattro. A fantastic synergy. Bonzo here really liked my move to the Elrogs and Quattro esp.
So, I had no real need to move, but my initial foray into the Nat World was before I got the Audions, and I was enthralled by the sound but had reservations of dark tonal balance. Phil 213Cobra on A'gon at the time geed me on to go Audion, and so I did, and have had a marvellous couple of years, esp getting acquainted w/the fantastic world that is SETs.
But that Nat experience kept nagging at me, and when the chance to acquire ex demo units at a good price came up, I re demoed. And 6hrs later decided to buy.
Anyhow, enough about me.
The Audion Black Shadows, seductive as they are, just can't compete with the Nats' tonal richness that just makes the mids so alive and colourful. And critically, unlike a lot of tonally warm tube amps like BAT that are full in the mids but wooly and smeared in the bass, there is no compromise in the lower frequencies. No gauziness at all. Like the best of a glass of full bodied red wine, and the crispness of a glass of white. Audion is pretty good w/tonal color, but the density/speed balance of the Nats just races away.
What is interesting is that the Nats dark balance that I was unsure about two years ago I have interpreted as a real culture shock change from sparse, skeletal Hovland house sound to a dense technicolor presentation that I was just not ready for, and rejected as too alien. But the stepping stone of Audions to the Nats is a better transition, and now this tone dense sound I can't get enough of.
KeithR, I see you run Zu Def4s, as I do. The tonal synergy btwn the 4s and the Nats is just plain spooky!
 
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spiritofmusic

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Just trying a beta tester interconnect, now in my system w/my Nat amps. Oh my gosh, the ante keeps being pushed up. I'll report on it at a later date. But the energy, tone and transparency the beta cable/Nats are generating is well beyond any previous experience of mine, and I'm having to redefine my expectations.
I feel blessed that I've come across components that have proved to be phenomenal in their performance, at price points maybe 3-5x cheaper than alternate choices which would match them.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Just learnt that A.J.Conti of Basis turntables fame runs Nat Generator amps. A man w/great taste in equipment it seems, and a small but significant addition to my confidence I've made a good decision.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Congratulations Spirit, 211s are such fantastic valves! Just wondering are the transformers wound silver on the NAT?

I noticed that Ypsilon has recently gone to silver transformers for their beautiful SET 100 and that those very best of the 211s from Kondo have also been silver wound transformers. Sounds like the NAT are playing quite beautifully from your early reports.

Best wishes on your future listening with them
Graham
 

bonzo75

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Graham, the entry level NAT pre, retailing at 7k, usually available from manufacturer direct at much less, was rated at 2, behind ypsilon's 23k retail pre, by a German mag.


Btw, I heard the tune audio anima with Aries cerat interested yesterday. Best speaker for me, along with a custom made horn I heard in Berlin. What amps does your friend drive them with?
 

bonzo75

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Also, speaking to a guy who dealt in high level NATs, kondos, and wavacs, he reckons NAT high level combo second only to the wavac, at much less the price.
 

LL21

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Graham, the entry level NAT pre, retailing at 7k, usually available from manufacturer direct at much less, was rated at 2, behind ypsilon's 23k retail pre, by a German mag.


Btw, I heard the tune audio anima with Aries cerat interested yesterday. Best speaker for me, along with a custom made horn I heard in Berlin. What amps does your friend drive them with?

Interesting...what are your thoughts on the Aries Cerat? I have a photo of it...but it wont load 899k too big? did you manage to hear the Aries reference horn speakers by any chance? even briefly?
 

spiritofmusic

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Graham, re silver wound transformers, I really can't say. I do know their transformers are specially commissioned, two per monoblock. They are certainly a lot beefier than my previous Audion Black Shadows, and I believe this contributes a lot to the bulletproof bass grip and mids-bass tonal saturation that the Nats demonstrate.
I have particularly got lucky w/a Beta Tester Sablon Audio Panatella i/c. I can't say more about this until it's officially launched, but the impvt over the standard Panatella is staggering (and the original I own is no slouch, I can tell you!), and the synergy w/the Nats is turning upside down what I thought was possible at this price point.
I have actually listened to the $100k Ypsilon SE 100s, obv before the change to silver wound transformers, and the $60k Koda amps. The transparency and tonal saturation of the Nats are on a par w/them, but grip and bass punch a step beyond. At a fraction of the price.
 

bonzo75

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Interesting...what are your thoughts on the Aries Cerat? I have a photo of it...but it wont load 899k too big? did you manage to hear the Aries reference horn speakers by any chance? even briefly?

The system sounded really good. The Cerat integrated weighs at 115 kg. I really can't compare it to anything because I have heard the Animas sounding great with even two devialets used as monos, lol. That said the decay and musicality was high, and it sounded better than his lower end cerat pre going into a heavily modded jolida.

They were demoed with Cerat monos in Munich in 2011 and it was considered to be one of the best rooms.

The best thing about Animas is that amps become less important. Yes, you can always improve sound but you won't need to. This guy had fluctuating dirty power he has left untreated and his system sounded better than sota power grounded systems
 

bonzo75

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Interesting...what are your thoughts on the Aries Cerat? I have a photo of it...but it wont load 899k too big? did you manage to hear the Aries reference horn speakers by any chance? even briefly?

You can load the photo on photo bucket and put up the link here
 

spiritofmusic

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Bonzo is gently twisting my arm (if that isn't a contradiction) to consider the Animas, and there's no doubt that at 109dB/m eff, the Nats and Animas could be a match made in Heaven. Esp when it comes to tone saturation and bass grip which the Nats are really advanced at. Aries Cerat I don't believe is distributed in the UK, so it's not a goer for me esp since I've settled on the Nats.
Where I disagree w/Bonzo is putting the vast majority of the emphasis on the spkrs, and a lot less on the amps. I have heard the Animas in the UK w/lesser amps (solid state I believe) than my Nats and Audions, and even my Hovlands, and the result was unappealing to me personally. So for me the amp choice is just as critical as the spkr choice, esp as you go up the price scale and the ability for spkrs to be uber revealing of the supply chain.
He also has a big predilection for panels, and you better get the amp-spkr synergy right here re low efficiency and brutal impedance curves.
But there's no doubt that high eff spkrs like my Zus and the Animas provide less barriers to getting the amp-spkr synergy choice right.
For me a big issue will be getting a home trial of the Animas. Unfortunately, there's almost close to zero chance on this, and no way am I going to risk a room-amp-spkr synergy mismatch at these price tags.
The good thing more relevantly is that my Zu Definitions Mk4s are really performing to hitherto unheard of levels of loveliness, and I'm at the very most simply curious about radical spkr changes like the Animas, but not at all gagging to hear them.
 
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LL21

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The system sounded really good. The Cerat integrated weighs at 115 kg. I really can't compare it to anything because I have heard the Animas sounding great with even two devialets used as monos, lol. That said the decay and musicality was high, and it sounded better than his lower end cerat pre going into a heavily modded jolida.

They were demoed with Cerat monos in Munich in 2011 and it was considered to be one of the best rooms.

The best thing about Animas is that amps become less important. Yes, you can always improve sound but you won't need to. This guy had fluctuating dirty power he has left untreated and his system sounded better than sota power grounded systems

Thanks...good to know. (BTW, i am not sure i have even heard of a photobucket!)
 

the sound of Tao

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Bonzo,
Would love to have heard the Aries Cerat, they would be the perfect spiritual match physically with the Animas given their striking visual appearance. Bit OTT on the big ram logo but even that has a charm.

I've heard the Animas at his place with his Manley 300b single ended amps as well as a pair of 50w class A monos by Pure and the crazy Greek horns even sounded great with a Bakoon. But for me the SET amps were the best marriage. Like many good horns they can be marvelously musical and kind to any gear as long as it has the right spirit and a low noise floor.

Ps Spirit, let Bonzo twist your arm, the Animas are just genuinely fantastic and the only other pair of speakers I've heard that appeal to me as much as the big Maggie's, oh so different but oh so very right at the same time. They have the sound, life like dynamics and scale as well as a presence that is both sonic as well as physical.
 
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LL21

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Bonzo,
Would love to have heard the Aries Cerat, they would be the perfect spiritual match physically with the Animas given their striking visual appearance. Bit OTT on the big ram logo but even that has a charm.

I've heard the Animas at his place with his Manley 300b single ended amps as well as a pair of 50w class A monos by Pure and the crazy Greek horns even sounded great with a Bakoon. But for me the SET amps were the best marriage. Like many good horns they can be marvelously musical and kind to any gear as long as it has the right spirit and a low noise floor.

Ps Spirit, let Bonzo twist your arm, the Animas are just genuinely fantastic and the only other pair of speakers I've heard that appeal to me as much as the big Maggie's, oh so different but oh so very right at the same time. They have the sound, life like dynamics and scale as well as a presence that is both sonic as well as physical.

Have you heard the big Aries Cerat reference horn speakers? Gigantic! 1.5meter-wide horns plus a separate sub tower or something. i believe the cones on that subtower below are 15"...so its like that tower is close to a Wilson Maxx3 in size? aeries_cerat_contendo_reference_horn_speakers_9fu9h.jpg
 

bonzo75

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Graham, exactly my point, Manley or anything, the speakers just sound great.

Spirit, if I got panels I am not saying I will run them with 20w amps. My point is while the NAT might sound best on an analysis, I wouldn't mind a lamm m2.2 or krell, as long as I was happy with the speakers.

And anima are much more amp tolerant. While a good amp will sound better, a cheap amp not rated on other speakers will still make them sing. The reason you didn't like them is I think they are just not for you. For me they are the best reproduction of jazz and orchestra I have heard so far.
 

Jazzhead

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Any feedback on their Magma flagship mono , anybody hear them yet ? That's one wicked bottle !!!
 

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