How do you suspend beliefs of Ticks, Pops, and Surface Noise?

Mosin · Mar 28, 2015

Audiophile Bill said:
Interesting. That means you could use the phono stage of your choice into a AD converter into your choice of playback software with room correction and declicking. Think I might try this for fun.

You don't even need the A/D converter. All you need is the ability to run a line in to the soundcard. I used old leftover components in my setup, a Dual 1019 turntable because it damps the cueing, and a PS Audio 5.0 preamp because it has separate gain for each channel. All that stuff was around from an upgrade back in the 1980's. I never throw anything away.

The end result is up there with Redbook, but not what we consider as truly critical audio. You need, at the very least, a classy high-end turntable for that!

Here's an example made with the above mentioned equipment. The card was a pro Terratec one, but the file is standard Redbook. The LP is in so-so condition with several noticeable pops and clicks, and a lot of surface noise.

http://www.internetpro.net/~gofigure/Jerry Lee Lewis - 07 - Chantilly Lace.wav

DaveyF · Mar 28, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Within four to five plays the very high frequency information has literally been worn away, playing and archiving is a good idea for precious vinyl.
Keith.

Really, you are kidding right!! I don't know what cartridge you are using, BUT I sure as hell wouldn't want it on my arm, LOL.

DaveyF · Mar 28, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Afraid not, we are talking the very highest recorded frequencies ,
Keith

Then all I can say is that it is time to change your cartridge....

Mosin · Mar 28, 2015

DaveyF said:
Then all I can say is that it is time to change your cartridge....

True. The example I loaded at the link in my earlier post seems to have adequate highs, even though I converted it using equipment that is inferior to our normal fare. Who knows what equipment the previous owner had? We never talk about that, yet we go crazy in the search for certain vintage records, regardless.

rockitman · Mar 28, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Within four to five plays the very high frequency information has literally been worn away, playing and archiving is a good idea for precious vinyl.
Keith.

That is patently false....even a fresh nitro cellulose master lacquer doesn't lose audible hi freq information after 10-15 plays. Please provide some credible evidence to support your position.

DaveyF · Mar 28, 2015

rockitman said:
That is patently false....even a fresh nitro cellulose master lacquer doesn't lose audible hi freq information after 10-15 plays. Please provide some credible evidence to support your position.

It has been theorized for years, that ultra sonic information is lost after just a few plays by the "supposed" cutting action of the diamond in the groove.
This ultra sonic information probably couldn't a) be picked up by the cartridge in the first place and b) wouldn't be audible to the human ear anyway.
This may be what Keith is referring to. BUT otherwise your statement holds true.
There are numerous examples of older LP's that have been played extensively and not damaged in anyway that is audible. Unless you may be a fruit bat that is, LOL....

JackD201 · Mar 28, 2015

Durability increased greatly during and after quadraphonic/quadradisc

dallasjustice · Mar 28, 2015

I've never had any interest in vinyl. However, I feel like the day will come when I need to buy a turntable just to enjoy lossless music files, even if they were DDA. It seems like CDs are slowly drying up and I wouldn't consider any MP3 or AAC a lossless file. I think lossless online streaming may prove unworkable as evidenced by all the problems Tidal is having. I doubt Tidal stays in business another year. I wouldn't be surprised if the ISPs will charge a toll (like they did to Netflix) which the little lossless streaming companies can't afford due to the small market size.

I bet vinyl will more than outlive CDs.

JackD201 · Mar 28, 2015

Given the way you throw yourself headlong into the technical aspects of audio Michael, I have no doubt that if you do get into vinyl someday that you will be getting great sound very quickly.

JackD201 · Mar 28, 2015

Purite Audio said:
I was perhaps too glib, there are many factors, a conical shaped stylus is like a plough permanently destroying the high frequency content on the first few passes, contemporary elliptical or line contact concentrate the contact force into a smaller area,causing more rapid stylus wear, that can damage grooves, important to replace the stylus regularly and of course keep your records clean.
The HF I was referring to might be heard by your children not by ( speaking for myself) middle aged men.
Keith.

see #51 Keith

30kHz carrier frequencies. Many of these discs have the matrix info playable and decodable 45 years later.

JackD201 · Mar 28, 2015

Also consider this

https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turt/stylus-shape-information

modern styli (diamond) are not chosen just because they are hard per se but because the hardness allows the smoothest polishing of any material possible. Record wear from contact happens when the styli is worn at the contact points. These are called flats where what used to be round/rounded and polished now have an edge turning it into a lathe. The more severe the flat the sharper the leading edge. The elastic nature of vinyl will allow a polished stylus to pass without incident. Just don't go and play a track over and over in one go thereby keeping the material memory from taking its course.

Johnny Vinyl · Mar 28, 2015

JackD201 said:
Just don't go and play a track over and over in one go thereby keeping the material memory from taking its course.

Which I believe takes no more than a few minutes, although I have heard as much as 10.

Atmasphere · Mar 30, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Within four to five plays the very high frequency information has literally been worn away, playing and archiving is a good idea for precious vinyl.
Keith.

Sorry to be so blunt but this is blatantly false although it is a popular myth.

Even a worn stylus won't grind away the highs- instead it will cause distortion and mistracking and can damage the groove. I have lacquers I cut years ago and have been played way too many times (generally a lacquer is only good for about 10 plays or so). They are not lacking highs- they just get noisy.

In short, this myth is debunked.

Atmasphere · Mar 30, 2015

^^ This just does not sound right to me at all. I used to service CD-4 quad systems when I was working my way through college. I had a CD-4 test record made by JVC. After well over 30 plays it still worked fine. It placed a 1KHz tone on each channel. The shop I worked at was the Allied Radio Shack service department when I started (1974) but was simply the Radio Shack service department when I left in the late 1970s. None of the turntables I used were any more sophisticated than a Benjamin Miracord changer! The LP resided on my bench and got no special treatment- I just pulled it out when testing a CD-4 quad system. For me to believe your statement is to think that somehow Radio Shack could make this work but other more high end companies fell flat of their respective faces. It just does not sound right at all.

My friend Earl Root had a collection of CD-4 recordings- he ran a record store. He always looked out for them because he had several customers that were always after them and he usually made good money on them. That issue never seemed to come up. So I am still thinking that this is an urban legend.

RCA used to make an analog color video disc that relied on an mechanical stylus. For color video you need a lot more than just 50KHz...

caesar · Apr 1, 2015

dallasjustice said:
I've never had any interest in vinyl. However, I feel like the day will come when I need to buy a turntable just to enjoy lossless music files, even if they were DDA. It seems like CDs are slowly drying up and I wouldn't consider any MP3 or AAC a lossless file. I think lossless online streaming may prove unworkable as evidenced by all the problems Tidal is having. I doubt Tidal stays in business another year. I wouldn't be surprised if the ISPs will charge a toll (like they did to Netflix) which the little lossless streaming companies can't afford due to the small market size.

I bet vinyl will more than outlive CDs.

Dallas,

Are you thinking of getting into vinyl or getting a vinyl setup for the purpose of "perfectly" ripping the vinyl to high-res? If done right, by an experienced individual and with great equipment, you can also eliminate the issue of stylus microphonics (per the other thread).

I'm in this hobby for the music, and I enjoy all formats. However, I will leave it to the experienced guys to compare and contrast how the best ripped vinyl sounds to the real thing. Obviously you can reduce microphonics and surface noise, but I'm sure that even the best ripped vinyl will not be quite the same experience...

Anyone have any experience with this?

rockitman · Apr 1, 2015

caesar said:
Dallas,

Are you thinking of getting into vinyl or getting a vinyl setup for the purpose of "perfectly" ripping the vinyl to high-res? If done right, by an experienced individual and with great equipment, you can also eliminate the issue of stylus microphonics (per the other thread).

I'm in this hobby for the music, and I enjoy all formats. However, I will leave it to the experienced guys to compare and contrast how the best ripped vinyl sounds to the real thing. Obviously you can reduce microphonics and surface noise, but I'm sure that even the best ripped vinyl will not be quite the same experience...

Anyone have any experience with this?

The whole reason I got back into vinyl in 2010 was after hearing hi-Rez well done needle drops of some of my favorite albums and compared them to CD. My signature tells the story...

caesar · Apr 1, 2015

rockitman said:
The whole reason I got back into vinyl in 2010 was after hearing hi-Rez well done needle drops of some of my favorite albums and compared them to CD. My signature tells the story...

I think I understand!

Fabulous system!

Bill Hart · Apr 1, 2015

I can get really quiet sonics from 40+ year old records; much has to do with cleaning methods in my estimation, because the contaminants, which include cigarette (or other) smoke form a glue that isn't easy to remove and a 'once over' cleaning won't remove this stuff. Records I once regarded as damaged have been brought back to a high playing level. Of course, some records are just damaged- by bad old record players, abuse, etc. My ratio of what I own and what I buy is probably 10/1 in favor of old vinyl- not that I have anything against 're-do's but my experience is that clicks and pops are not the sine qua non of the vinyl experience.

Atmasphere · Apr 1, 2015

^^ Its been my experience that most people suffer ticks and pops on account of unstable phono preamp designs as well. De-clicking a phono track only seems worthwhile if you are never going to find another copy of that particular LP.

How do you suspend beliefs of Ticks, Pops, and Surface Noise?

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