How do you suspend beliefs of Ticks, Pops, and Surface Noise?
- Thread starter caesar
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depending on the table...the same pops and clicks can be much louder and more noticeable on one table than on a better damped/isolated table.
there are two parts to this response;
part 1---when there is some surface noise I listen past it unless it's extreme.
by extreme i'd say a 'tic, tic, tic' longer than a couple of revolutions, lots of tics or crackles, or groove distortion that affects the music. i'd say that less than 3% of my 8k Lps might be 'noisy' to the point where my mind is conscious of it. and past a certain point I dispose of the record....throw it away. in 20 years of vinyl listening there has likely been less than 50 I've pitched.
sometimes one blames the pressing for the noise when it's feedback. if you have a system with lots of bass energy and do not have optimal isolation that resonance will be fed back to you as noise. this happens in any format; but more so with vinyl.
part 2---most vinyl is really quiet other than the lead in and lead out groove (some lead-out grooves are so quiet I might not realize that the side is done.....some lead-out grooves have noise added so you know). between cuts where there is no music sometimes you can hear a noise floor. but during quiet passages it's q u i e t. the ambient signature is many times what is heard, obviously the lower the noise floor of one's whole vinyl system the quieter things can be.
sometimes on pressings I've played 500+ times I do notice a slight degree of additional tics; but I have some I know I've played over 2000 times that are dead quiet.
I've had really really quiet vinyl gear for 15+ years so my perspective is based on that.
and I've compared a number of pressings to the master tapes and there is mostly little of any difference in noise floor. vinyl as a format is quiet; execution of the format is not always optimal.
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Even on a setup such as mine vinyl is and can be extremely quiet. It's all about maintenance in my case as I could never expect to attain a completely noise-free background without the platforms used my Mike, Christian and others. But that's a system issue and not one of vinyl inferiority. I too have LPs that are 40-45 years old and play without issue, barring the odd tic due to age.
That is very telling as by the looks of your digi stack...you are committed at the highest level....I can only focus on one or the other....
Easy. Buy LPs in good condition and keep them clean! 
Sometimes it's just an errant piece of dirt sometimes it's actual damage. Over the years I've replaced the inherited and flea market LPs that I really liked that have damage. For what I have now, I'd say 2 to 3 tics or pops a side is the most I'll get and this is a small fraction of my total.
Moving forward, using better styli shapes, good arms and proper setup will keep groove wear low making your LPs and carts last longer. Buying flat LPs or using a table on warped ones that can deal with the warps will reduce wow and flutter and extend cantilever suspension life while also helping to preserve the grooves.
Got LPs you love but can't find good replacements for? My approach is similar to bad digital where I would dumb it down by listening to it in the car or something. I use DJ MM carts on a dull, midbass centric tables like my SL1200 Mk2s or SL1210 M5Gs. The Shure M-44 is a scratching cart with freaky tracking ability. The Ortofon Concorde Pro S Elliptical is more nuanced but still rolled off enough to ease the transients off a tic or pop. Listen to the pops magically return to prominence when the stylus is replaced with an OM-40 stylus. One designed for serious listening and not partying.
For elimination of LF artifacts like rumble, groove noise and feedback, that's where the uber tables and arms come in. Not surprising that these tables are found used in systems that give true 20Hz and below performance, not the +/- 6 or even 3dB kind in rooms large enough for at least quarter wave development.
Some surface noise is easy to listen past. Like perhaps low level hum. It bugs the OCD in me but you don't actually hear IT when music is playing it just affects dynamic potential and nuance the latter with pieces with quiet passages. That is rather rare outside of classical and some jazz. You will hear these best in lead it tracks and gaps. In my case engaging the vacuum hold down drastically reduces noise in these gaps to near digital black. It's a creepy thing. When comparing hold down which turns your 150g LP into a 30+kg one while flattening it with hold down off, the "off" sounds slightly compressed.
Sometimes it's just an errant piece of dirt sometimes it's actual damage. Over the years I've replaced the inherited and flea market LPs that I really liked that have damage. For what I have now, I'd say 2 to 3 tics or pops a side is the most I'll get and this is a small fraction of my total. Moving forward, using better styli shapes, good arms and proper setup will keep groove wear low making your LPs and carts last longer. Buying flat LPs or using a table on warped ones that can deal with the warps will reduce wow and flutter and extend cantilever suspension life while also helping to preserve the grooves.
Got LPs you love but can't find good replacements for? My approach is similar to bad digital where I would dumb it down by listening to it in the car or something. I use DJ MM carts on a dull, midbass centric tables like my SL1200 Mk2s or SL1210 M5Gs. The Shure M-44 is a scratching cart with freaky tracking ability. The Ortofon Concorde Pro S Elliptical is more nuanced but still rolled off enough to ease the transients off a tic or pop. Listen to the pops magically return to prominence when the stylus is replaced with an OM-40 stylus. One designed for serious listening and not partying.
For elimination of LF artifacts like rumble, groove noise and feedback, that's where the uber tables and arms come in. Not surprising that these tables are found used in systems that give true 20Hz and below performance, not the +/- 6 or even 3dB kind in rooms large enough for at least quarter wave development.
Some surface noise is easy to listen past. Like perhaps low level hum. It bugs the OCD in me but you don't actually hear IT when music is playing it just affects dynamic potential and nuance the latter with pieces with quiet passages. That is rather rare outside of classical and some jazz. You will hear these best in lead it tracks and gaps. In my case engaging the vacuum hold down drastically reduces noise in these gaps to near digital black. It's a creepy thing. When comparing hold down which turns your 150g LP into a 30+kg one while flattening it with hold down off, the "off" sounds slightly compressed.
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I used to hear ticks and pops and surface noise before I got my present vinyl system.
I also hear less ticks and pops after the lps have been cleaned in the VPI 16.5 and then demagnetized.
Truth be told, the only noise I hear from vinyl is on the lps that were bought used and that were not well taken care of .
I can't say for sure if moving up the ladder gear and price wise is the reason for less noise.
But it appears to be that way in my system.
Some of the vinyl that I used to find noisy just isn't anymore.
I also hear less ticks and pops after the lps have been cleaned in the VPI 16.5 and then demagnetized.
Truth be told, the only noise I hear from vinyl is on the lps that were bought used and that were not well taken care of .
I can't say for sure if moving up the ladder gear and price wise is the reason for less noise.
But it appears to be that way in my system.
Some of the vinyl that I used to find noisy just isn't anymore.
Almost all LP's will develop ticks and pops over time. Listening to my copy of LSC 2241 at a recent a'phile meeting, we had an interesting reaction to the LP. On one hand we had a couple of members screaming that they couldn't take the noise anymore and please remove the LP.....( these guys are our digital lads)...and then we had the others who were so enamored of the music flowing over them that they were in rapt enjoyment. My pressing is a VG+ pressing of this fairly rare LP. The guys who wanted to stop listening could in no way get past some of the surface noise. I then did a little experiment...I treated the LP with Gruv-Glide. ( which I highly recommend for any noisy LP). The back ground noise went down at least 25%. The same guys wanting the record removed, still wanted the record removed....however, the others were left slack jawed.
I just remove them. Old (my classical collection averages 40-55 years old), used vinyl is almost impossible to find in truly mint condition. So I digitize the records and remove the clicks and pops, and if necessary, the crackles. Pretty straight foward with good software, where you can even hear exactly what is being removed.
Larry
Larry
Gruv-Glide is also effective at removing some detail from the sound as well. I've used it before and do not recommend it. I do not want that stuff on my stylus personally.
Feel the same way. When I got back into vinyl in 2010 with my first TT and before I had a real record cleaner other than a spin clean, I used it for a couple months on some records before recognizing it was better not to use it. If I have a record that would require gruv glide to make the record listenable, I get a better copy of said record.
That's going to depend on the record. In the example I posted above, good luck finding an ultra clean copy. Same thing goes for a lot of jazz LP's from the day.
BTW, IF Gruv Glide is removing detail, I would like to know how it is doing that....doesn't make any sense. Unless you have incorrectly applied the stuff, I also see no way how it is going to attach to the stylus.
I would really like to know (facts, not opinion) how it removes some details as that's not been my experience at all. I use it only on some LPs (very few in fact), so I'm not concerned about any stuff that attaches itself to the stylus.
I used it more when I only had my Spin-Clean, so I agree. How did you recognize it was better not to use it? I don't play records that are unlistenable, but I use the Gruv-Glide when I feel a copy could use some additional help after a cleaning with the NG.
Sorry, remove detail is not really the right wording. Obscuring detail is more like it. If you clean the stuff off the detail is still in the record. It just leaves a layer of film that fills in the micro details in the groove, that's all. If you use a cartridge with an advanced stylus profile and have a resolving enough system you will hear the difference.
If the record is trashed then it may sound better on the whole to use the stuff. I don't think it is necessarily evil but it is definitely not ideal.
How does it attach to the stylus? Same way it attaches to the record. It is a film. It will get onto the stylus by riding in it.
Sorry Johnny, I don't believe any one has done a scientific study on the subject. If someone wants to fund one I would be happy to do it.
My choice of wording was poor. It does not remove detail. It obscures it, and it can be cleaned off the record.
If you clean your stylus with a fluid cleaner then it should remove the residue of the GRUV-GLIDE.
Never thought of that....it's a valid point! I don't need the study now!Sorry Johnny, I don't believe any one has done a scientific study on the subject. If someone wants to fund one I would be happy to do it.
My choice of wording was poor. It does not remove detail. It obscures it, and it can be cleaned off the record.
If you clean your stylus with a fluid cleaner then it should remove the residue of the GRUV-GLIDE.
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