Matching Koetsu Blue Lace to proper SUT or pre-amp

bgupton · Feb 15, 2015

I pulled the trigger on the Koetsu Blue Lace. I'm a bit confused about pairing it with my pre-amp or another SUT.

I have a Shindo Vosne Romanee. I also have the standard A23 SUT made for the Denon 103. My understanding is that the A23 I have is made for medium output carts like my Delos. I also understand that the Vosne Romanee has a built in phono stage that is more optimized for a low output cart.

What I don't know is if the Vosne Romanee's phono stage is optimal to get the best out of the Koetsu Blue Lace given it's output/impedance or if I should be considering a separate SUT like the A23 Hommage T1 or something altogether different. It's hard to find technical specs on my Shindo stuff. I'm sure my dealer will respond, but thought I'd ask here too.

Any advice on how well this cart will mate with my Shindo and/or better SUT matches?

Here's the tech specs for my Blue Lace:

Specifications:
Body: Blue Onyx
Type: Moving Coil
Coil Wiring: Silverplated Copper
Magnet: Platinum Magnet
Cantilever: Boron Cantilever
Output Volts: 0.3mV
Frequency Range: 20Hz to 100kHz
Channel Seperation: 25db/1kHz
Inner Impedance: 5 Ohm
Channel Balance: 0.5db/1kHz
Recommended Impednace: 30 Ohm
Weight: 12.5g
Compliance: 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne at 100 hz

BruceD · Feb 15, 2015

I've owned the cart--and its forbears--the Cotter 2L is the best as purpose built for the K's--they are available S/H

Second only to the now virtually unobtainium Expressive Technologies SUT

Any others apart from these two are compromises with the Koetsu's

Just my opinion

Good Luck superb cart!

BruceD

Bruce B · Feb 15, 2015

I use the Doshi Audio with my Coralstone. No SUT needed. I believe Rockitman uses a SUT with his Aesthetix.

audioarcher · Feb 15, 2015

bgupton said:
I pulled the trigger on the Koetsu Blue Lace. I'm a bit confused about pairing it with my pre-amp or another SUT.

I have a Shindo Vosne Romanee. I also have the standard A23 SUT made for the Denon 103. My understanding is that the A23 I have is made for medium output carts like my Delos. I also understand that the Vosne Romanee has a built in phono stage that is more optimized for a low output cart.

What I don't know is if the Vosne Romanee's phono stage is optimal to get the best out of the Koetsu Blue Lace given it's output/impedance or if I should be considering a separate SUT like the A23 Hommage T1 or something altogether different. It's hard to find technical specs on my Shindo stuff. I'm sure my dealer will respond, but thought I'd ask here too.

Any advice on how well this cart will mate with my Shindo and/or better SUT matches?

Here's the tech specs for my Blue Lace:

Specifications:
Body: Blue Onyx
Type: Moving Coil
Coil Wiring: Silverplated Copper
Magnet: Platinum Magnet
Cantilever: Boron Cantilever
Output Volts: 0.3mV
Frequency Range: 20Hz to 100kHz
Channel Seperation: 25db/1kHz
Inner Impedance: 5 Ohm
Channel Balance: 0.5db/1kHz
Recommended Impednace: 30 Ohm
Weight: 12.5g
Compliance: 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne at 100 hz

Your preamp has built in SUT's that can handle a .2 mv signal according to the specs. No idea if they are good match for your cart sound wise, but I would try them first. Should have enough gain at least.

BruceD · Feb 15, 2015

Yes as a Shindo owner I know the Pre can handle the cart--but the listening consensus seems to indicate the MM Phono plus an appropriate SUT is the preferred input with the Shindo Pre's

Just an observation

BruceD

bgupton · Feb 15, 2015

BruceD said:
Yes as a Shindo owner I know the Pre can handle the cart--but the listening consensus seems to indicate the MM Phono plus an appropriate SUT is the preferred input with the Shindo Pre's

Just an observation

BruceD

So what would an appropriate SUT be?

BruceD · Feb 15, 2015

Hi, Well the two I have mentioned above--but The Auditorium Hommage would be the pick currently available in cohesiveness with the VR Pre--there are two types I'd suggest try the higher setting version(EMT/Denon /etc) even though your Cart is low output--it may work better--just gut feeling as I've found the K's to boot out bit more than they rate.

I've owned the Ortofon series Auditorium SUT and it mated very well with the Shindo Pre

Good luck

BruceD

JackD201 · Feb 16, 2015

I'm an SUT guy. Built in silver cores and jensens. For my Koetsu I only use my Koetsu step up.

Emil · Feb 16, 2015

bgupton said:
I pulled the trigger on the Koetsu Blue Lace. I'm a bit confused about pairing it with my pre-amp or another SUT.

I have a Shindo Vosne Romanee. I also have the standard A23 SUT made for the Denon 103. My understanding is that the A23 I have is made for medium output carts like my Delos. I also understand that the Vosne Romanee has a built in phono stage that is more optimized for a low output cart.

What I don't know is if the Vosne Romanee's phono stage is optimal to get the best out of the Koetsu Blue Lace given it's output/impedance or if I should be considering a separate SUT like the A23 Hommage T1 or something altogether different. It's hard to find technical specs on my Shindo stuff. I'm sure my dealer will respond, but thought I'd ask here too.

Any advice on how well this cart will mate with my Shindo and/or better SUT matches?

Here's the tech specs for my Blue Lace:

Specifications:
Body: Blue Onyx
Type: Moving Coil
Coil Wiring: Silverplated Copper
Magnet: Platinum Magnet
Cantilever: Boron Cantilever
Output Volts: 0.3mV
Frequency Range: 20Hz to 100kHz
Channel Seperation: 25db/1kHz
Inner Impedance: 5 Ohm
Channel Balance: 0.5db/1kHz
Recommended Impednace: 30 Ohm
Weight: 12.5g
Compliance: 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne at 100 hz

Congratulations on your Blue Lace! I found it to be the best cart so far. Have in mind that the newer Koetsu carts sound more dynamic without losing the lifelike timbre and other qualities. With the right tonearm and correct installation the Blue Lace will shine. Make sure you have the (heavy) counterweight closer to the spindle for better tracking. IME a good phono betters the Koetsu SUT. I found that the Blue Lace works best at 58-60 dB phono stage gain and 100 Ohm, but the former could vary with different equipment.

Peter Breuninger · Feb 16, 2015

JackD201 said:
I'm an SUT guy. Built in silver cores and jensens. For my Koetsu I only use my Koetsu step up.

Years ago, I tested a Koetsu SUT vs. the Mitch Cotter with a Pro-IV and Rosewood siggie. I thought the Cotter had more life and more leading edge, the Koetsu SUT did indeed shine in the almighty midrange. It was an overall tossup on the audio balance beam. My taste ran toward the Cotter though I think because the Koetsu carts at the time were soft at the frequency extremes.

Audiocrack · Feb 16, 2015

BruceD said:
I've owned the cart--and its forbears--the Cotter 2L is the best as purpose built for the K's--they are available S/H

Second only to the now virtually unobtainium Expressive Technologies SUT

Any others apart from these two are compromises with the Koetsu's

Just my opinion

Good Luck superb cart!

BruceD

Very interesting remark Bruce. I use inter alia use a Koetsu coral stone platinum diamond cartridge but I have never combined it with my Expressive Technology SU-1. Actually have not used the ET SU-1 for more than decade I believe. Am I being stupid here and should I get it out the box again? Actually thought about selling it but there only a very few audiophiles who know about ET SU-1 and never wanted to sell it for a fancy price.

bgupton · Feb 16, 2015

Yeah, I already have the A23 (Denon 103 version), so I can try it with that. Maybe I can get Matt to send me the Hommage to try out.

bgupton · Feb 16, 2015

Emil said:
Congratulations on your Blue Lace! I found it to be the best cart so far. Have in mind that the newer Koetsu carts sound more dynamic without losing the lifelike timbre and other qualities. With the right tonearm and correct installation the Blue Lace will shine. Make sure you have the (heavy) counterweight closer to the spindle for better tracking. IME a good phono betters the Koetsu SUT. I found that the Blue Lace works best at 58-60 dB phono stage gain and 100 Ohm, but the former could vary with different equipment.

Thanks for the info!

I just got back from meeting with Stirling @ Audio Systems Optimized. Great guy. He's doing an install for me and dialing in my room. I had him inspect the Blue Lace since it was purchased used. Dealer claimed that it only had about 5 hours on it. I assumed that was dealer speak for 500 hours, but I still got a great deal.

Stirling inspected the cart pretty thoroughly and says that it is indeed barely used. Said it still looked brand new. Nice!!!!! Now I feel even better given what I paid for the cartridge.

My install is Friday, so I'll keep you all posted. Pretty excited now.

bgupton · Feb 16, 2015

Audiocrack said:
Very interesting remark Bruce. I use inter alia use a Koetsu coral stone platinum diamond cartridge but I have never combined it with my Expressive Technology SU-1. Actually have not used the ET SU-1 for more than decade I believe. Am I being stupid here and should I get it out the box again? Actually thought about selling it but there only a very few audiophiles who know about ET SU-1 and never wanted to sell it for a fancy price.

If you try it and decide to sell, let me know.

BruceD · Feb 16, 2015

If you get the ET SUT you must get the cable that accompanies it in tandem--part of the designers synergy

It is the finest SUT ever made--put's the rest behind it

BruceD

Loop4fun · Feb 16, 2015

I used the A23 with the Dynavector 20X2L into the VR as well as the Giscours with great results. The specs of it look comparable to the Koetsu in terms of output and internal impedance.

pcosta · Feb 18, 2015

I use mine almost every day. Sometimes I use the other one on top.

Audiocrack · Feb 18, 2015

bgupton said:
If you try it and decide to sell, let me know.

Will do so.

Audiocrack · Feb 18, 2015

pcosta said:
View attachment 18954 View attachment 18953

I use mine almost every day. Sometimes I use the other one on top.

Which one do you prefer? I have both units also available although - as previously mentioned - I have not listened to the Expressive Technology for more than a decade. I suppose the preference depends on the cartridge you play with?

pcosta · Feb 18, 2015

I prefer the Expressive with the Dynavector XV-1s that I have. But the Kondo I use with the IO-M and that combo is a must. The Expressive just adds so much life to the music and I haven't heard another transformer do the same.

Matching Koetsu Blue Lace to proper SUT or pre-amp

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