Recommend room treatments for the mini room I call "my dedicated listening room"

Orb

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Ethan/Nyal in both your experiences,
how realistic is the benefit of implementing diffusion in a small room or treating 1st reflection, and does this change depending upon its quality/design for such a space?
Also is it fair to say treating the 1st reflection in a small room has pros/cons, and if so can you share them please (from my experience I felt there were benefits/negatives for both treating and not 1st reflection in my smaller room)

It is an interesting subject as smaller rooms are not really discussed in greater detail, and in Europe (especially UK) this would be highly applicable.

Thanks
Orb
 

DonH50

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I am not Ethan but will share my experience; I am sure he can correct and enhance later:

1. I do not find diffusors in small rooms terribly beneficial as there are already many closely-spaced reflections bouncing around.

2. Treating the first reflection points has always provided a cleaner sound with fewer wavefront interaction (comb filter) issues and a more stable image for me no matter the room size (from control rooms to auditoriums). I know of no audible cons. Not treating generally "smears" the image (sorry for imprecision in words but that's as close as I can come to the sound) and lets those nasty comb filter effects stand out (e.g. move your head an inch (2.54 cm) and the sound changes a mile (1.61 km) due to frequency response aberrations from the interacting sound waves).

FWIWFM - Don
 

Orb

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Thanks Don and is appreciated.
Well maybe it was me then or the absorbers I use, but I felt the soundstage becomes reduced while also depending upon the music (appreciate FR also is a consideration) the speakers did not vanish as well into the room compared to without side correction.
Not treating as you say loses out on the clarity, slight smearing but the speakers managed to vanish better or importantly increased the soundstage.
True nearfiled listening I appreciate would possibly reduce those effects I mention??
Anyway that is not possible for me but maybe for others.

Thanks
Orb
 

RBFC

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If you get better clarity with sidewall absorption, but lose soundstage and "speaker invisibility", I'd submit that you're hearing more reflections and reverberant sound with less direct sound from the speakers with untreated walls. In this case, my first thought would be to work on speaker positioning while the absorption is in place. You should be able to achieve a better compromise this way, since the deterioration of an accurate sound field due to early reflections is well-documented.

Lee
 

rblnr

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What are people's experiences w/absorption on the front wall between the speakers?
 

rblnr

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I usually find it a plus -- cleans up and deepens the soundstage. I'm going to experiment with some absorption panels over the highly reflective 8' screen that sits between my speakers and see if I find improvement. If so, I'll replace my present screen w/an AT screen (expensive), and put the panels behind it. Curious what other's experiences are, obviously somewhat room dependent.
 

DonH50

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I agree with Lee on soundstage issues, Orb. You are likely trading a lot of accuracy in FR for a feeling of spaciousness from the extra reflections, and IME that feeling is wrong. It may sound good on some content, but not other. E.g., I do not find a wall-to-wall cello or violin terribly realistic... It reminds me of many derived surround fields that sound good at first but not at all natural.

My front wall is heavily treated from corner to corner and made a tremendous improvement but since I have dipoles (Magnepans, including the center) my experience may be atypical. I also treated it all at once so do not know the impact if I used just the corner and directly behind panels. Since my center is also a planar dipole I wanted the whole wall dead...

IIRC, damping between speakers had little impact (except for the usual room bass modal issues) when I was using Infinity QLS and Alpha (more conventional) speakers.

YMMV - Don
 

rblnr

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What's your reasoning behind eliminating as much of the rear output of the Maggies as possible? Isn't that at least somewhat contrary to their design intent?
 

Orb

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Thanks Lee, is this from experience with a small room or normal?
Because I notice the two are not identical in behaviour (used both in my home).

You are right about positioning but please bear in mind this is a small room (13ftwide by 10.5ft), so bringing the speakers closer in (away from wall that are currently around 3.5ft from sides) again affects soundstage/imaging/spaciousness/etc (I am talking of side wall reflections as I do treat corners behind speakers and also wall behind listener).
That may be an option with true nearfield monitors but the quality I have is pretty excellent without going that route, just with slight compromise as I mention that ideally would like to know if it is possible to have both..

I guess what I am experiencing is what Nyal says with this:
What we hear from a sound quality perspective in a small room is therefore determined as much by the reflected sound as the direct sound. Reflected sounds can cause many psychoacoustic cues such as tonal coloration, image spreading and spaciousness. Reducing the level of reflections is an attempt to increase the proportion of directed sound and reduce the impact of reflections on sound quality. To further complicate things there are some reflections that can be 'good' from a psychoacoustic perspective. These 'good' reflections, arriving from the left and right side walls, can act to increase the perceived spaciousness in the sound stage which can be attractive to some listeners.

Like you and Don say it does affect neutrality but not dramatically, however in terms of colouration I find this is greatly affected without treatments behind speaker (with adjustment left or right) and also near centre of the same wall.
So in all other cases I have found a perfect blend for presentation/tonal balance,etc.
However I cannot find a good balance between side wall reflection to get the best while maintaing as Nyal says image spreading/spaciousness.

I do have heavy drapes/curtains for side that work better than full absorption just in case you think its bare wall.

Edit:
Just to say I did measure room ages ago and it was pretty good (awful without the treatment of wall behind speakers and also behind me).
What this room loses to my larger room is the quality/texture of the bass while the small room due to its better symmetry (in terms of speaker placement/boundaries/treatments) is better in tonal balance/imaging.
Cheers
Orb
 

RBFC

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I learned a lot by setting up my big Apogees in an 11 ft. wide room. So, some of this is conjecture and some of it is educated guessing.

My next thought would be that the materials you used for sidewall dampening may have overdamped the sound. That, in combination with the heavy drapes or other furnishings, may make a space that has been properly treated in a reflection/geometric sense seem overdamped in a sonic sense.

If it were my room, I'd experiment with movable traps on stands that could be put in the closet when not in use. And, for a room that small, is that you'll need powerful damping/bass-trapping in all the right places and have to adjust the spectral balance of the room by removing other furnishings/draperies that are not essential to the sonic setup. ...as long as you have no issues with domestic acceptance.....

Lee
 

Nyal Mellor

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Orb

Many people struggle with finding a good balance between soundstage focus and envelopment. I personally like to use combination absorber / diffusor panels at the side wall reflection points, particularly in small rooms. The best product to place in this location in my experience is a BAD ARC panel http://www.rpginc.com/products/badarc/index.htm. It transitions from absorption to diffusion around 1000Hz.

Note that a 1 or 2" movement of speakers further apart or closer together can tip the balance between focus and envelopment one way or another, so you should definitely experiment. The easiest way to do this is to lay out a small grid on the floor with masking tape and then you can move the speakers in or out and listen to the effect. It is quite audible.

Nyal
 

RBFC

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Good thoughts by Nyal! The ASC tube traps also have a "foil" reflective half-circumference which can be rotated into position to allow diffusion of higher frequencies as well.

Lee
 

DonH50

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What's your reasoning behind eliminating as much of the rear output of the Maggies as possible? Isn't that at least somewhat contrary to their design intent?

I don't want to pull this thread (too) off-track, but will note that Magnepan has suggested damping the wall behind over the years especially in smaller rooms (not sure their current stance). A lot depends upon the size of the room and listening position etc. etc. etc. In a (very) large room, I have found less damping is required because you can pull them out and away from the near walls so the reflected wave path length is long enough to not mess with imaging and frequency response (FR) too badly. In a smaller room, the back wave hitting the wall behind and then canceling the front wave is a significant concern (it wreaks havoc with the FR and makes the sweet spot a pinpoint -- a gorgeous pinpoint indeed, but...) I had them working OK without the panels and they sounded great, but now they sound great if a little less "spacious" but the image is tight and stable and the sweet spot covers the couch vs. having sound that would change dramatically with a few inches shift in listening position. I might have tolerated it (and have in the past) if it was just me, but now they are in an HT setup and others listen as well. And, I can afford room treatment now. :)

FWIWFM, I have found this to be true with other dipoles, e.g. Quad and other electrostats, as well. - Don
 

Orb

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Orb

Many people struggle with finding a good balance between soundstage focus and envelopment. I personally like to use combination absorber / diffusor panels at the side wall reflection points, particularly in small rooms. The best product to place in this location in my experience is a BAD ARC panel http://www.rpginc.com/products/badarc/index.htm. It transitions from absorption to diffusion around 1000Hz.

Note that a 1 or 2" movement of speakers further apart or closer together can tip the balance between focus and envelopment one way or another, so you should definitely experiment. The easiest way to do this is to lay out a small grid on the floor with masking tape and then you can move the speakers in or out and listen to the effect. It is quite audible.

Nyal

Nyal your the dude and thanks this is something I will try :)
Yeah I have done plenty of experimenting with moving/toe-in/etc of speakers including adjusting the different acoustic panels.
I did use a methodology similar to what you suggest, including angle of toe-in and angle between user-speaker markers.
I must admit I love a small room in that small adjustments are pretty easy to notice, including adjusting panels by inches from my experience.
In a way its like tweaking without spending cash (well once you have the panels) and I swear it can assist in training hearing.

Thanks again for the suggestion and this does seem to fit in with what I need to try for the side reflections, instead of the wideband absorbers.
Orb
 

Orb

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I learned a lot by setting up my big Apogees in an 11 ft. wide room. So, some of this is conjecture and some of it is educated guessing.

My next thought would be that the materials you used for sidewall dampening may have overdamped the sound. That, in combination with the heavy drapes or other furnishings, may make a space that has been properly treated in a reflection/geometric sense seem overdamped in a sonic sense.

If it were my room, I'd experiment with movable traps on stands that could be put in the closet when not in use. And, for a room that small, is that you'll need powerful damping/bass-trapping in all the right places and have to adjust the spectral balance of the room by removing other furnishings/draperies that are not essential to the sonic setup. ...as long as you have no issues with domestic acceptance.....

Lee

Thanks Lee and I think you are spot on with regards to overdamping the sidewall with the absorber, which makes Nyal's suggestion great for me, and maybe for others using a small room.
I think you hit on something important, is the flexibility to adjust the position of not only speakers but also acoustic panels and what types are used and where.
I am lucky that this small room is allowed to have anything done (dedicated listening room), so I have been able to do a lot of experimenting with panels and speaker placement, whats in the room, etc.

As I mentioned, with traditional speakers it seems to me the most important walls in small room are behind speaker and behind the listener, once this is done the subtle changes in sidewall reflections are noticable depending what you put therem which until Nyal's suggestion the best I found were heavy drapes instead of wideband absorbers.

Don thanks also for joining in.
Cheers
Orb
 

Nyal Mellor

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The other product you might look into is the FlexiFuser http://www.primacoustic.com/flexifuser.htm. I have not used it but came across it recently and it seemed interesting, it would basically allow you to dial in a combination of absorption and reflection. A variation on this option is using 6" wide strips of fiberglass at the reflection point and varying the separation between them, leaving the wall reflective in between. In essence what you are doing with these options is changing the amount of reflected energy reaching you from the sidewalls.
 

flez007

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Dave - as you know I just use Sonex-like diffusors (Acoustic Sounds) on the front wall to receive early back reflections from the GHs, and three bass traps from ASC to control sound modes in the bass region. They worked well in my room creating a more focused and relaxed presentation.
 

DaveyF

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Fernando, did you try moving the diffusors and the bass traps around, as some of the posters have suggested to maximize their effect? Since my room is smaller than yours and i have a great deal of gear and LP's in it, Ethan's idea of a moveable device on a stand seems to make good sense. With that in mind, i am concerned that attaching something to the minimum wall space that I have available, could be detrimental. One of my local 'phile friends went seriously backwards when he installed his room treatments. We all knew it immediately, but we couldn't figure out how to correct the problem save for removing all the panels to the original bare wall config. Ultimately, after much swearing and confusion on all our parts:mad:, he decided to pare down to a bare minimum on the wall treatments, resulting in his being marginally better off; although I personally think the improvement was not worth the price and particularly the effort. This is what i am trying to avoid if possible.
 

flez007

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Framing the difusors to try first may not be a bad idea Dave, you can take in-out at any time and document any changes. What is interesting with room treatment is that sometimes it is the less expected place where some help is needed, like the floor, ceilings or that weird corner or sofa sometimes we just ignore.
 

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