The SA-3.1-An overlooked gem

mep

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If you are on a beer budget and long for the sound that a really good tube preamp can give you-look no further than the Counterpoint SA-3.1. The SA-3.1 was in the middle of the line-up between the SA-7.1 and the mighty SA-5.1. The SA-3.1 is a full-function preamp with the great sounding Counterpoint phono section which uses a pair of 6DJ8 tubes (or any of their better sounding cousins like the 6922, 7308, EC88, ECC, E188CC, etc.) and one 6DJ8 in the line stage. It has an outboard power supply and the rectification is SS vice vacuum tube like its bigger brother.

The SA-3.1 is a very sweet and refined sounding preamp with a great phono section. Since most people have no idea how good this preamp is, you can sometimes see them selling on Audiogon for as little as $350.00. They are very undervalued. Even at double that price, you really couldn’t go wrong. I would recommend this preamp to anyone who is short on funds, but wants some high-end tube magic in their system. I personally wouldn’t recommend sending one back to Michael Elliott for any upgrades as the upgrades get pricey very quickly and you may as well save your cash until you get your hands on an SA-5.1 which is in a different league.

Mark
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Steve-Although counterintuitive, the SA-7.1 was the bottom of the line, the SA3.1 was in the middle, and the SA-5.1 was at the top of the heap. I once had a conversation with Michael Elliott who designed all of Counterpoint’s gear and asked him if he could only take one of his preamp designs to the proverbial dessert island which one it would be. Michael replied it would be the SA-5.1. The reason he gave was because it was the most pure tube of any of his preamp designs and the best sounding. The SA-5.1 starts with a tube rectifier which then feeds 3 tube voltage regulator tubes. The phono section is pure tube as well as the line stage.

All of Mike’s later work after the SA-5.1 which would include the SA-9, SA-11, SA-1000, SA-2000, SA-3000, and SA-5000 were full of SS devices. The power supply regulation in the SA-5.1 was also the most pure tube of any of the other preamps.

Depending on the condition of the SA-5.1, they can go as cheap as $800 and for the here and now top out at around $1400. The funny thing is the SA-5000 brings more money because people who don’t know any better think it is better because it is newer. Although the SA-5000 has some cool features like restricted cartridge loading from the front panel and it can take low output cartridges straight in, it simply isn’t in the same league as the SA-5.1. My brother owned an SA-5000 and once he heard my SA-5.1 he couldn’t wait to get rid of it and buy an SA-5.1. The problem was, there were no SA-5.1 preamps for sale anywhere. I told him I could smoke one out for him if he was willing to trade straight across instead of waiting for an SA-5.1 to become available and then sell his SA-5000 for more money. Sure enough, I found someone who owned an SA-5.1 to trade my brother for his SA-5000.

If anyone knows of a better bargain in all of high-end audio, please let me know what it is.

Mark
 

jadis

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Long time ago, I had an SA 7.1 pre amp. It's a very sweet sounding pre amp. I had an Ariston RD110/Premeire MMT/Grade 8MR front end and the amp was a Sumo Polaris driving the Infinity RS 3Bs. During that time, I loved the sound and specially the mass strings were reproduced with utmost sweetness with no trace of harshness. There was a slight problem thought, the volume control of the 7.1, when used, produced a harsh gritty screeching noise that would come out the loudspeakers. And the balance control would make the same noise. A neighbor liked my sound so much he offered to buy the Sumo/7.1 combo so that I could 'upgrade'. He told me he had the controls cleaned from the inside and it solved the problem but from time to time, it would recur and the cycle of cleaning needed to be done again.
 

mep

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I too owned a brand new SA-7.1 many, many years ago. It was my first tube preamp. I never had the volume pot/balance pot problem you did. The 7.1 was a sweet little preamp and I had a few enjoyable years with it before I upgraded.

Mark
 

jadis

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I too owned a brand new SA-7.1 many, many years ago. It was my first tube preamp. I never had the volume pot/balance pot problem you did. The 7.1 was a sweet little preamp and I had a few enjoyable years with it before I upgraded.

Mark

Maybe it was just my unit that was fuzzy. And I recall the SA-9 phono stage highly praised by HP then, and he mated it with the Jadis JPL line stage. There were a couple of SA-9s here though with different pre amps, and both sounded very very nice. I was tempted but when I saw how many tubes the SA-9 needed, I passed on to get something with just 3 tubes. lol
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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I know the SA-9 and SA-11 always had a cult status about them. I never had a chance to hear either of them. The funny thing is, Mike Elliott retreated from those type of designs and he no longer offers upgrades for either one-just repairs. I think the reason he only offers repairs on for them now and not upgrades is the price of the upgrades would exceed his new offerings under the Aria name. When Mike was offering upgrades for the SA-9/SA-11, he removed as many of the SS devices from them that he could. I think that was why the SA-5.1 was Mike's favorite preamp as it was the most pure tube preamp he ever designed under the Counterpoint name and the one he surely modeled his new preamp on that he is currently selling under the Aria name. If you look at the preamp and see the tubes he is using, it is the exact same tube line-up as the SA-5.1. The biggest differences I can see is that the new preamp has a switch that allows you to choose 6.3v or 12.6v so you can roll different tubes. It also has a choke for the power supply.

Mark
 

jadis

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I know the SA-9 and SA-11 always had a cult status about them. I never had a chance to hear either of them. The funny thing is, Mike Elliott retreated from those type of designs and he no longer offers upgrades for either one-just repairs. I think the reason he only offers repairs on for them now and not upgrades is the price of the upgrades would exceed his new offerings under the Aria name. When Mike was offering upgrades for the SA-9/SA-11, he removed as many of the SS devices from them that he could. I think that was why the SA-5.1 was Mike's favorite preamp as it was the most pure tube preamp he ever designed under the Counterpoint name and the one he surely modeled his new preamp on that he is currently selling under the Aria name. If you look at the preamp and see the tubes he is using, it is the exact same tube line-up as the SA-5.1. The biggest differences I can see is that the new preamp has a switch that allows you to choose 6.3v or 12.6v so you can roll different tubes. It also has a choke for the power supply.

Mark

Very interesting indeed, Mike.
 

pico

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Feb 17, 2011
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Oh! This is an old post but I want to contribute somehow. Because I think I have a good contribution for this.

I have been an happy owner of Counterpoints 3.1 and 5.1 preamps. I bought a used a dirty cheap Counterpoint 3.1 in 2005 just for curiosity because a "venerable" local audiophile that owns Kondo Audio Note (Japan) preamps, amps and DACs said that the only preamp that he had in the past that could compete with Kondo Audio Note was the Counterpoint 5.1. I couldn't find a 5.1 and I went for a 3.1 after I read that the designer, Mike Elliot, wrote (it's website is now over)

"In many respects, these preamps are very similar, and they share the same phono and line stage design. The essential difference between these two preamps is that the SA-5/5.1 has two line stage tubes where the SA-3/3.1 has a single tube shared by both channels; and the SA-5/5.1 uses a vacuum-tube regulator whereas the SA-3/3.1's regulator is solid-state."

The first listening session was kind of shocking. A pure music machine. At that time my preamp CAT SL-1 (Convergent Audio Technology). The 3.1 didn't have the resolution of the CAT, but it was playing real music. After two weeks I put the CAT on selling and started to look for a Counterpoint 5.1. I found one after 6 months. Elliot was right, it had the same character and sound signature of the 3.1 but it had more resolution and elegance. I took the 5.1 at my friend's place, he never compared the 5.1 with the Kondo... of course it's a matter of tastes, but the 5.1 to me sound better than the Kondo... its fleshly massive presentation is truly unique.

For something like 2 years I had both 5.1 and 3.1 on my rack. Despite the bigger and more elegant presentation of the 5.1, and its much higher resolution, to be honest, I started to miss the speed and punch of the 3.1.
The 5.1 was far superior with Jazz, acoustic ensembles and vocal music. But I listen to a lot of Rock and Electronic music as well, and in that department the 3.1 was doing something better. I wrote to Elliot, he told me that that was the effect of having a solid state PSU.

The other annoying thing about the 5.1 was the number of tubes. Not only the cost, but do you know what happens when you want to find the right mix and you need to optimize a set of 8 tubes... it's crazy.
Apart from PSU the 5.1 had also better pot and other parts. I started the crazy adventure to modify the 3.1. Elliot had several upgrade patterns described very well on its website, but I didn't like the idea of sending the unit back and forth to the US for replacing caps, pots and few resistors.
I started to mimic the upgrade described by Elliot spending something like 1000Euros. The end results was that I liked the upgraded 3.1 more than the original 5.1. The 5.1 was still superior in terms of tone and delicacy, but with difficult stuff (like listening to Rush or Toto) the modified 3.1 is kind of magic.

The modified 3.1 is still my reference and I don't think I'll never change it. Five years ago I met a wonderful tube expert technician. He developed a tube PSU inspired to that of my 5.1. He made a genius device that I can switch between the two PSU (solid state and tube) without rearranging cables. Using the tube PSU, the upgraded 3.1 sounds very close to the 5.1 with Jazz and acoustic stuff, and therefore I recently sold the 5.1. End of the Story.


PS: I am adding this after posting. I forgot to say that given the output topology of the line stage circuit both 3.1 and 5.1 need to see at least 100KOhm impedance to really sing as the can. Therefore forget to pair them with low input impedance solid state monsters.
 
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jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,347
5,460
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Manila, Philippines
Oh! This is an old post but I want to contribute somehow. Because I think I have a good contribution for this.

I have been an happy owner of Counterpoints 3.1 and 5.1 preamps. I bought a used a dirty cheap Counterpoint 3.1 in 2005 just for curiosity because a "venerable" local audiophile that owns Kondo Audio Note (Japan) preamps, amps and DACs said that the only preamp that he had in the past that could compete with Kondo Audio Note was the Counterpoint 5.1. I couldn't find a 5.1 and I went for a 3.1 after I read that the designer, Mike Elliot, wrote (it's website is now over)

"In many respects, these preamps are very similar, and they share the same phono and line stage design. The essential difference between these two preamps is that the SA-5/5.1 has two line stage tubes where the SA-3/3.1 has a single tube shared by both channels; and the SA-5/5.1 uses a vacuum-tube regulator whereas the SA-3/3.1's regulator is solid-state."

The first listening session was kind of shocking. A pure music machine. At that time my preamp CAT SL-1 (Convergent Audio Technology). The 3.1 didn't have the resolution of the CAT, but it was playing real music. After two weeks I put the CAT on selling and started to look for a Counterpoint 5.1. I found one after 6 months. Elliot was right, it had the same character and sound signature of the 3.1 but it had more resolution and elegance. I took the 5.1 at my friend's place, he never compared the 5.1 with the Kondo... of course it's a matter of tastes, but the 5.1 to me sound better than the Kondo... its fleshly massive presentation is truly unique.

For something like 2 years I had both 5.1 and 3.1 on my rack. Despite the bigger and more elegant presentation of the 5.1, and its much higher resolution, to be honest, I started to miss the speed and punch of the 3.1.
The 5.1 was far superior with Jazz, acoustic ensembles and vocal music. But I listen to a lot of Rock and Electronic music as well, and in that department the 3.1 was doing something better. I wrote to Elliot, he told me that that was the effect of having a solid state PSU.

The other annoying thing about the 5.1 was the number of tubes. Not only the cost, but do you know what happens when you want to find the right mix and you need to optimize a set of 8 tubes... it's crazy.
Apart from PSU the 5.1 had also better pot and other parts. I started the crazy adventure to modify the 3.1. Elliot had several upgrade patterns described very well on its website, but I didn't like the idea of sending the unit back and forth to the US for replacing caps, pots and few resistors.
I started to mimic the upgrade described by Elliot spending something like 1000Euros. The end results was that I liked the upgraded 3.1 more than the original 5.1. The 5.1 was still superior in terms of tone and delicacy, but with difficult stuff (like listening to Rush or Toto) the modified 3.1 is kind of magic.

The modified 3.1 is still my reference and I don't think I'll never change it. Five years ago I met a wonderful tube expert technician. He developed a tube PSU inspired to that of my 5.1. He made a genius device that I can switch between the two PSU (solid state and tube) without rearranging cables. Using the tube PSU, the upgraded 3.1 sounds very close to the 5.1 with Jazz and acoustic stuff, and therefore I recently sold the 5.1. End of the Story.


PS: I am adding this after posting. I forgot to say that given the output topology of the line stage circuit both 3.1 and 5.1 need to see at least 100KOhm impedance to really sing as the can. Therefore forget to pair them with low input impedance solid state monsters.
Nice review. I wish the company was still alive. Fleshy. That's a pretty good word to describe my 7.1 sound. All the while before I've been using the word 'thick'. To think I never tube roll with that preamp. How I wish.
 

Roms42

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Feb 2, 2022
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Sorry but ilt's wrong, the SA 3.1 have only needs 0.5mv to good work.
It's well stipulated in the old brochure (i just read it).
It's even said that it was specially built for amps with an input impedance, so with my Sony ta-n7b power amp to 50kohm no problèms.
Quite the opposite of what you say.
I forgot LOW impedance
 

pico

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2011
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Roms42 said:
Sorry but ilt's wrong, the SA 3.1 have only needs 0.5mv to good work.
It's well stipulated in the old brochure (i just read it).
It's even said that it was specially built for amps with an input impedance, so with my Sony ta-n7b power amp to 50kohm no problèms.
Quite the opposite of what you say.
I forgot LOW impedance

Sorry, no I'm not wrong. I think I am right 100%.

Please read again what I wrote: I haven't said that it doesn't work with an input impedance below 100KOhm, I said you that with >=100K it "really sings". I experimented with input impedance as low as 30K and it works, it even sounds good. But it doesn't sing.

It's not only that I've so much experience with Counterpoint gear, but over the past years I had many contacts with Mike Elliot (the designer) who said more than SA-5 inspired designs need to see an highish impedance to really do their best despite they can drive much lower impedances. In fact, to solve the problem they came out with the SA preamo series where they had a jfet output buffer (that then ruined the amazing sound of the SA 5 circuit).






 

Roms42

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Désolé, non je ne me trompe pas. Je pense avoir raison à 100%.

Merci de relire ce que j'ai écrit : je n'ai pas dit que ça ne marche pas avec une impédance d'entrée inférieure à 100KOhm, je vous ai dit qu'avec >=100K ça "chante vraiment". J'ai expérimenté avec une impédance d'entrée aussi basse que 30K et ça marche, ça sonne même bien. Mais ça ne chante pas.

Ce n'est pas seulement que j'ai tellement d'expérience avec l'équipement Counterpoint, mais au cours des dernières années, j'ai eu de nombreux contacts avec Mike Elliot (le concepteur) qui a dit que plus que les conceptions inspirées de SA-5 ont besoin de voir une impédance élevée pour vraiment faire de leur mieux bien qu'ils puissent piloter des impédances beaucoup plus faibles. En fait, pour résoudre le problème, ils sont sortis avec la série SA preamo où ils avaient un tampon de sortie jfet (qui a ensuite ruiné le son incroyable du circuit SA 5)
 

Roms42

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Ah ok !
With my amp 50KOhm it's a good match but i prefer my Micro lampizator preamp (russian valves) 47KOhm i think.
 

Kcin

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This is an old thread- I used to have Counterpoint products back in the early 80's. For a lark I took a 3.1 a year or two ago and totally upgraded it by constructing a regulated tube power supply with 5AR4 rectifier and el84 pass tube. The old power supply was disconnected in the unit and I added an umbilical cord. The usual cap upgrades and no electrolytics for decoupling all film. I eventually added built in Sowter SUTs as well .Sounds awesome.
 

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bigkidz2

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Funny thing when I had my Counterpoint SA-5000, Mike told me that the 5000 was his favorite. I doubted him but just took it for what it was worth. My company vu jade audio offers rebuilds/upgrades, etc., to all audio components and we have done so many Counterpoint units for the past ten years. We also manufacturer our our product line. The Counterpoint components sound excellent with upgrades and are probably reference level once we get done with them. Nice job on the SA-3.1 Kcin. I have one in for upgrades now along with an SA-100, SA-9 and two SA-3000.

Happy Listening.
 

Kcin

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Mar 27, 2016
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SA9 is quite elusive.

I reconnected with a friend just a few weeks ago after 25 years- and he still has his SA5.1 in pristine condition in his secondary system. As you know, these would cook ,bake and fry because of some of the design choices made- but they sounded good.
The real only difference with the SA3.1 is no cathode follower and SS B+ . The gain and RIAA is pretty much identical to the SA 5.1

More detail on what I did to mine pictured -no one really wants to attempt something like this because it is far too much work. However, it kept me busy in my basement for a couple of months during the cold winter. I ended up anodizing the front PS panel in lot for another project after realizing the ventilation for the PS I had was inadequate and the case needed more machining. I just throw it in the system once in awhile to show myself that I have probably spent way too much money on my daily driver lol.



Funny thing when I had my Counterpoint SA-5000, Mike told me that the 5000 was his favorite. I doubted him but just took it for what it was worth. My company vu jade audio offers rebuilds/upgrades, etc., to all audio components and we have done so many Counterpoint units for the past ten years. We also manufacturer our our product line. The Counterpoint components sound excellent with upgrades and are probably reference level once we get done with them. Nice job on the SA-3.1 Kcin. I have one in for upgrades now along with an SA-100, SA-9 and two SA-3000.

Happy Listening.
 

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pico

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Feb 17, 2011
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Hello Kcin

If you read my previous post I did something similar... well, a technician did the psu for me.

...
The real only difference with the SA3.1 is no cathode follower and SS B+ . The gain and RIAA is pretty much identical to the SA 5.1

do you think the cathode follower in the 5.1 really ads something? My impression is that the SS B+ makes more difference. What do you think about it?

From your pics I saw you installed Sowter SUT as done by Michael Elliot. Michael used to install the Sowter 8055 now discontinued and replaced with the 1480. However, I contacted Brian Sowter who suggested to use the 9570 as more general purpose SUT. If I read well on the pics you installed the 1990. What's your experience? Have you tried also other SUT?
 

Kcin

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Mar 27, 2016
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Hi Pico,

I have not tried other built in type SUTs- the 1990 is configurable 1:10 and 1:20 with a flip of the switch - so more universal for my purposes.

I agree that the tube PS is a greater influencer. As long as your cables are under 2M and you have a sufficiently high input impedance on your amp- one could argue that the 3.1 might be superior from this perspective.

This was just a fun project for me to re-kindle some memories.
 

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