What's Everyone Reading

Priaptor said:

Eh I hate to tell you BUT there are many memorials to his bravery, courage and sacrifice in Saratoga as well as further north. Without that "low life", the American Traitors may not have won the Revolutionary War. Should we rip down those tributes? Don't forget Franklin's famous words regarding their treason ""We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Also let's not forget that Franklin was dead set against the Revolution until the very end when he was rebuked by the Crown because he thought it too far out to revolt and that it was treasonous.

What you guys are missing is the tearing down of monuments that are already up denoting our historical figures, good or bad and as jazdoc and I pointed out when and where do you stop. We are not talking about putting new monuments but tearing down what exists. You refuse to answer that simple question other than with platitudes about "decency, blah, blah".

There are many statues and memorials to the "brave men and figures" at Confederate battlefields. Are those museums? Should they be torn down? Are they offensive because they represent a horrible time in American history? Now you have people going after our Founders and Framers who want to rip apart the Jefferson Memorial and change the name of or rip down the Washington Memorial. You have lunatics who want to eliminate all recognition of Jefferson at UVA, including his many statues, memorials and plaques as well as rename buildings. Should we tear out the many foreign plants and trees he planted on the campus? You have lunatics who want to shut down Monticello and Mt. Vernon; are those museums that should be allowed to exist or because they are offensive to some be torn down as other memorials are being torn down. Without getting into politics any further, one thing I have learned about this kind of behavior is that where it begins is never the intention of where these maniacs want to end. They have no intention of placing any of this in museums as they are already calling for the destruction of what many of us refer to as museums.

Again, answer the very specific question regarding Grant to put a face and name to a Northern Hero General, regarded as responsible for turning the tide of the Civil War. One of the most if not the most anti-Semitic leader of the north during (and after) the Civil War, with General Order No 11 as well including his anti-Semitic rhetoric. Why not tear down Grants tomb and like Horatio Gates move his remains to an unmarked grave in Trinity Church. How about Lincoln, who as a youngster took part in a battle against Native Americans and actually had many campaigns against the same during his presidency responsible for the massacre of many innocents. Or all the other historical figures that did unacceptable acts; surely none are as egregious as FDR's internment of Japanese-Americans.

In an effort to be politically correct, you guys can't even understand history, the effects the good and bad have had on our or any heritage for that matter, how to define what constitutes a memorial or a museum so how are you going to be the arbiters of "whats acceptable". There have been many regimes in past history that thought they knew what was acceptable and they all turned into fascists or dictatorial regimes.

Click to expand...

NorthStar said:

I too agree because the past is the history reminder of all things and people...from the very worst (bad) to the very best (good).

The good we are proud of, and it's a good feel to honor.
The bad we remember, we are not proud, those are just dead relics without honor.

Should we tear down and burn every monument and building that represent bad?
It's up to the people, nobody else. Me, I would use those buildings and transform them as jails for today's criminals. I would use the criminals to transform them, their labor, in exchange for room and board.
I would make them to rebuild old bridges, highways, ...and use those paychecks to pay the guards and the building maintenance.

Click to expand...

NorthStar said:

I'm not an historian expert on American battles of the last few hundred years.
First I wasn't there, two I didn't read all accounts from various different views, ...I think we all understand @ different levels of knowledge. It's up to the top historians to educate us, are you one? ...And we learn from there, through books, documentaries and articles and TV programs and Netflix and Wiki and the World Wide Web...the Internet and YouTube.

Click to expand...

Priaptor said:

What you guys are missing is the tearing down of monuments that are already up denoting our historical figures, good or bad and as jazdoc and I pointed out when and where do you stop. We are not talking about putting new monuments but tearing down what exists. You refuse to answer that simple question other than with platitudes about "decency, blah, blah".

Click to expand...

dminches said:

Sorry, but erecting a monument is not history. What a person did and its effect on the country is history. A monument is just a way for the current society to commemorate the history.

Looking back, putting up a monument for a traitor seems questionable, at best. And while no one is looking to change history, how someone is viewed can certainly be adjusted along the way, assuming is it done based in a fair manner.

To me, there is a big difference between someone who tried to rip the country apart (Lee and Davis and others) and someone who owned slaves (Washington, Jefferson, etc.) at a time where that was a norm in society. That doesn't make it right but it does need to viewed somewhat in context. There is no context for treason.

My view of this has nothing to do with being politically correct.

Finally, maybe you can explain how history is being erased.

Click to expand...

Priaptor said:

OH I see, so NOW you are the arbiter of what is good and what is bad. LMAO.

"....how someone is viewed can certainly be adjusted along the way....", you mean, like many are now interpreting our Founders who were slave owners who want to rip down their memorials, change names of schools, destroy their homesteads=museums, etc. So according to you, the arbiter, we can interpret our Founders through the prism of the context of when they lived but when it comes to others, they deserve no such treatment? What other boundaries do you want to draw?

You make me laugh.

Click to expand...

dminches said:

Why are you so obnoxious and condescending?

First, I never said I was changing my opinion. Second, I even carved out founding fathers as slave owners due to context. Second, being a traitor is different (to me).

How about telling us how history is being erased.

Click to expand...

dminches said:

Why are you so obnoxious and condescending?

First, I never said I was changing my opinion. Second, I even carved out founding fathers as slave owners due to context. Second, being a traitor is different (to me).

How about telling us how history is being erased.

Click to expand...

"In this clear and compelling book, Jerry Muller shows how our attempts to improve organizational outcomes through quantitative measures have metastasized into a culture of gaming and manipulation. Through carefully researched case studies on education, healthcare, and compensation, The Tyranny of Metrics makes a convincing case that we need to restore judgment and ethical considerations at a time when shallow quantification threatens the integrity of our most important institutions."?Rakesh Khurana, Harvard Business School

"Have you ever wondered why universities make the mistake of hiring presidents with little or no experience in higher education, or why, nine times out of ten, these foreign imports fail? Then read Jerry Muller's new book and you will understand such folly as one more instance of an unhappy, massive trend?abandoning the situated judgment of experienced professionals in favor of the supposedly objective judgment promised (but not delivered) by the magic bullet of metrics: standardized measures and huge data banks touted as generating insight and wisdom all by themselves. Muller dismantles this myth in a brisk and no-nonsense prose that has this reader crying ‘yes, yes' at every sentence."?Stanley Fish, author of Winning Arguments and Think Again

Click to expand...