Deflate-gate triggers stat spat- analysts attempt to solve why Patriots don't fumbl

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
By Eric Adelson, Yahoo Sports

PHOENIX – Maybe the smoking gun isn’t in a bathroom at Gillette Stadium. Maybe it’s in the laptop of a civil engineer in Washington, D.C.
One of the strangest twists in the already strange saga of deflate-gate is the sudden star turn of a man who runs a gambling website when he’s not doing his day job. Warren Sharp is a 36-year-old dad who loves numbers and algorithms, and decided to apply some statistics to the Patriots when he heard about the football deflation investigation. What he found sent ripples through the sports world and got a few other statisticians pretty upset.

It also may have implications beyond Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.

Sharp’s idea was to look at fumbles. That led him to a more refined topic: how well the Patriots held onto the ball both before and after the 2006 season, which happened to be the year Brady and Peyton Manning pushed for a rule change which allowed each team to provide their own footballs for games.

“Something significant changed from 2006 to 2007 that allowed them to retain the football,” Sharp said by phone Tuesday, “and that continues today.”

According to Sharp’s calculations, the Patriots’ fumble rate was 42 touches per fumble from 2000 through 2006. That was about the league average. Since 2007, however, that rate has dropped dramatically, to 74 touches per fumble. Over that time, the Pats are the best team in the NFL at holding onto the ball, even including dome teams.

“Based upon the data we’ve collected and the probabilities, it definitely is extremely unlikely that their ability to hold onto the football would change so much and be as far away from the rest of the NFL,” Sharp said. “It’s extremely unlikely.”

This finding trickles down to individual players, in some cases. Kevin Faulk was drafted by the Patriots in 1999 and played in New England through 2011. Up until the 2007 season, Faulk had 23 fumbles. After that point, he had two. Danny Amendola had 10 fumbles in four seasons with the Rams, then came to New England and lost the ball only once in two years.

As for Brady himself, he had 59 fumbles in his first six seasons, and only 37 in his most recent seven seasons.

“Did Bill Belichick teach players anything differently starting that season?” Sharp asked. “Something clearly happened.”

What does all this prove? Well, nothing definitively. Sharp himself admitted there is no ironclad conclusion from his data. Fumbles are somewhat random occurrences. Some fumbles happen on kickoffs, which use different footballs by league rules. And obviously the weather is different in each game. Playing in Miami in the heat of early September is far different from playing in Green Bay in December.

But Sharp is well aware of all that and yet he insists the findings can’t possibly be happenstance.

“This is definitely not random fluctuation,” he said.

Unsurprisingly, more than a few Patriots fans are not buying it. “Statistical hocus pocus,” rants one fan on Facebook. But Sharp’s analysis is also under fire from a couple of other statisticians.

“It’s 98 percent bunk,” said Greg Matthews, an assistant professor of statistics at Loyola University in Chicago. “He basically reached a conclusion already and he wants to find the most sensational stats he can find.”

Matthews said he found a “tremendous amount” of flaws in Sharp’s breakdown, among them the touches-per-fumble method of lining up the Patriots against the rest of the league.

“I refute the fact that the Patriots are an outlier,” Matthews said. “I refute that fact definitely. Are they better after [2006]? Possibly, but it’s not outrageously better.”


Another leader in the statistic community, Brian Burke of Advanced Football Analytics, drew this conclusion in a recent post after looking at fumble rates (excluding dome teams):

“Whoa. In this case NE is at the top of the list, and the next best team is a distant second. Notice how the second team [Baltimore] through the second to last team [Philadelphia] have rates that are within 1 or 2 plays of each other. NE, however, is better than the next best team by 20 plays per fumble.”

That’s hard to explain away.

Sharp doesn’t claim any team as his favorite. His affinity is for the numbers, whether for his handicapping site or for his algorithms. He said he would like other people to crunch the numbers even if it shows where he went wrong.

“Can you deny that the Patriots did not change dramatically in fumble rate since the 2006 season?” he asked. “Can you deny that the Pats are significantly better than the rest of the NFL since then?”

If no one can deny those two assertions, the question that raises looms as large as deflate-gate, if not larger. Winning the turnover battle is an enormous part of winning football games, and if the Patriots found a way to win the turnover battle, whether by deflating the ball or some other measure (or both), that indicates a turning point in the sport starting in 2006.

It's important to recognize that the Patriots' ability to hold onto the football isn't just about statistics. It reflects terrific preparation and execution, led by a future Hall of Fame coach and a future Hall of Fame quarterback. But this latest controversy has brought scrutiny to everything Pats-related – even a Brady quote that was innocuous in 2006.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady said back then, arguing his case for every team being allowed to provide its own footballs at games. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Statistics, like footballs, are malleable. But Sharp is confident that although humans can change their story over time, numbers do not.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Great stuff. It is 100% obvious that a deflated ball is easier to hold onto. The numbers don't lie (unless the methodology is rigged/flawed). The plot is thickening!
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
414
1,210
Northern NY
In the end, the Patriots are the Champs ! That last big catch with seconds to go by the Hawks was very lucky. Lucky for the Pats, the beast wasn't used to attempt the winning touch down...which was the play they should of made....Carroll should be fired.
 

carolkoh

[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
Sep 17, 2010
907
226
955
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com

jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,439
5,547
2,810
Manila, Philippines
In the end, the Patriots are the Champs ! That last big catch with seconds to go by the Hawks was very lucky. Lucky for the Pats, the beast wasn't used to attempt the winning touch down...which was the play they should of made....Carroll should be fired.

That lucky juggling catch was something. I was thinking the Seahawk's luck from the Colts game was still continuing. But I won't try to deny Malcolm Butler's heroic snatch, a rookie at that. He saved the Patriots and you can see how Brady reacted when Butler made the INT
 

jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,439
5,547
2,810
Manila, Philippines
I was reading the analysis of that call. Here's one of them : http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7961789/pete-carroll-play-call-defense and I can see why he made that call.

Hate that he made that call! Called him all kinds of an idiot while watching it... But I can see why he would have made it.

It's quite clear to me now too, after reading that analysis. But again, had Butler not made that INT, Carroll will not be blamed. I'm reminded of a similar situation a few years ago in the NBA Finals between the Heat and the Spurs. Coach Popovich of the Spurs should have called to foul a Heat player (to take 2 foul shots) when they were up by 3 with a few seconds left. He did not, and Ray Allen hit a 3 point shot to tie the game and send it to OT where the Heat won. Had Allen not hit the 3, Coach Popovich will be ok. And just the same, the call to pass will haunt Carroll for a while, just like it did to Popovich.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
That lucky juggling catch was something. I was thinking the Seahawk's luck from the Colts game was still continuing. But I won't try to deny Malcolm Butler's heroic snatch, a rookie at that. He saved the Patriots and you can see how Brady reacted when Butler made the INT

Not only was that the worst play call in the history of 49 Superbowls but what I find interesting is that Pete Carroll got burned by the same call that he beat the 49ers on when Richard Sherman intercepted a Colin Sackorpick pass to Crabtree in the end zone which if caught would have sent the 49ers to the Super Bowl. Carol, with all due respect (as I am not a Seahawks fan and was hoping for a Patriots win to knock some of the cockiness off the faces of Richard Sherman, Marshawn Lynch and to have Pete Carroll choke on his Double Bubble gum), when you are inside the one yard line and have arguably the best running back in the league why the hell would you call a pass play

IMO the Patriots didn't win the game as much as Seattle lost the game

That play could become Pete Carroll's legacy
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,663
4,410
Not only was that the worst play call in the history of 49 Superbowls but what I find interesting is that Pete Carroll got burned by the same call that he beat the 49ers on when Richard Sherman intercepted a Colin Sackorpick pass to Crabtree in the end zone which if caught would have sent the 49ers to the Super Bowl. Carol, with all due respect (as I am not a Seahawks fan and was hoping for a Patriots win to knock some of the cockiness off the faces of Richard Sherman, Marshawn Lynch and to have Pete Carroll choke on his Double Bubble gum), when you are inside the one yard line and have arguably the best running back in the league why the hell would you call a pass play

IMO the Patriots didn't win the game as much as Seattle lost the game

That play could become Pete Carroll's legacy

here is the silver lining to last night's debacle; unlike the Bronco's wipe-out in last year's Super Bowl, the Seahawks and their fans know that they belonged in that game, could have won, and have confidence that they are elite and will continue to be elite. Bronco fans saw their 'elite' team get blown out and lost confidence and that is the worst feeling for a fan or team.

i'm disappointed as a big fan, but i'm at peace with it and mostly see it as a lost opportunity, not devastation and an end to anything.

in spite of the Percy Harvin mistake which robbed them of their most elite passing playmaker, injured reserve for their two best defensive tackles and starting tight end, and injuries both to their fastest receiver in the NFC Championship Game, having Sherman, Thomas and Chancellor nicked up, and their starting nickel corner and second best pass rusher lost during the Super Bowl, they still should have won. if Lane does not go down do the Pat's still score 2 touchdowns in the 4th Quarter?

regarding the perceived cockiness of the Seahawks; most Seahawks fans hate it. I wish they would shut their mouths. but i'm afraid when you put together guys who were mostly told they were not good enough, and they succeed through that bravado and motivation, then we just have to live with it and how it looks.

I think many fans of other teams also resent the 12's and the loudness of the Century Link; somehow thinking that it's unfair on some level.....which is sour grapes pure and simple, but I get it.

so when you combine the cockiness of some of the players, with the whole 12's thing, and then add the normal rivalry feelings.....I get why people hate on the Seahawks.

and completely agree on that play call, it was complete stupidity. Woody Hayes was right.
 
Last edited:

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
414
1,210
Northern NY
IMO the Patriots didn't win the game as much as Seattle lost the game

I disagree ...Seattle had what, two completions out of four attempts in the first half ? What plays they did make from a QB passing standpoint succeeded and were risky. Brady was surgical as usual....save for two INT's. Only him, Bradshaw and Montana can claim 4 Super Bowls. Brady now has the super bowl touchdown record. The pats won the game....
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,663
4,410
I disagree ...Seattle had what, two completions out of four attempts in the first half ? What plays they did make from a QB passing standpoint succeeded and were risky. Brady was surgical as usual....save for two INT's. Only him, Bradshaw and Montana can claim 4 Super Bowls. Brady now has the super bowl touchdown record. The pats won the game....

you need to go back and review what happened late in the 1st half. the score at halftime was 14-14. Seattle's passing game is 'big play'; that is their deal. Brady is a dink and dunk kinda guy at this point in his career.

now tell me what you expected to happen before that last interception. be honest.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
414
1,210
Northern NY
you need to go back and review what happened late in the 1st half. the score at halftime was 14-14. Seattle's passing game is 'big play'; that is their deal. Brady is a dink and dunk kinda guy at this point in his career.

now tell me what you expected to happen before that last interception. be honest.

I expected the beast to unleash and the Pats go home as losers. No denying these stats for Brady.
With two of his four touchdown throws coming in the fourth quarter and 328 yards on 37-of-50 passing...
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,663
4,410
I expected the beast to unleash and the Pats go home as losers. No denying these stats for Brady.

you said it, anyone watching had assumed it was over in favor the Seahawks. they had it won. but then they opened the door to the other possibility.....

so the Seahawks made a decision that caused them to lose it.....the Pat's made the play when it was gift wrapped for them.

no one is arguing stats for Brady. look at the list of injuries on the Seahawk defense. major surgery for Sherman, Lane, Thomas, and Chancellor. Cliff Avril out with a concussion. our two best defensive tackles on injured reserve. so don't get too carried away with Brady's stats in this game.....or 2 touchdowns in the 4th quarter. he was facing a defense running on fumes.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
414
1,210
Northern NY
you said it, anyone watching had assumed it was over in favor the Seahawks. they had it won. but then they opened the door to the other possibility.....

so the Seahawks made a decision that caused them to lose it.....the Pat's made the play when it was gift wrapped for them.

no one is arguing stats for Brady. look at the list of injuries on the Seahawk defense. major surgery for Sherman, Lane, Thomas, and Chancellor. Cliff Avril out with a concussion. our two best defensive tackles on injured reserve. so don't get too carried away with Brady's stats in this game.....or 2 touchdowns in the 4th quarter. he was facing a defense running on fumes.

Imagine the people who seriously gambled on the game...some must of been in cardiac arrest during that last minute...
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
you said it, anyone watching had assumed it was over in favor the Seahawks. they had it won. but then they opened the door to the other possibility.....

so the Seahawks made a decision that caused them to lose it.....the Pat's made the play when it was gift wrapped for them.

no one is arguing stats for Brady. look at the list of injuries on the Seahawk defense. major surgery for Sherman, Lane, Thomas, and Chancellor. Cliff Avril out with a concussion. our two best defensive tackles on injured reserve. so don't get too carried away with Brady's stats in this game.....or 2 touchdowns in the 4th quarter. he was facing a defense running on fumes.

There is no doubt that the Seahawks should have won the game. It's not so much that the Patriots won but rather that the Seahawks lost. When I looked at the clock I expected the Seahawks would give the ball to Lynch and after he score there would be precious little on the clock for Brady. Further with 18 seconds left after the interception, the Patriots were taking the snap from their 2 yard line which meant if Brady didn't get out of the end zone it would have been a 2 point safety and the Patriots would have to kick from their 20 leaving the Seahawks with time on the clock
 

zztop7

Member Sponsor
Dec 12, 2012
750
3
0
Edmonds, WA
Nefarious

One yard = run the ball
Anything else = something nefarious is going on
[please have a keen sense for the obvious]
zz.
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
There is no doubt that the Seahawks should have won the game. It's not so much that the Patriots won but rather that the Seahawks lost. When I looked at the clock I expected the Seahawks would give the ball to Lynch and after he score there would be precious little on the clock for Brady. Further with 18 seconds left after the interception, the Patriots were taking the snap from their 2 yard line which meant if Brady didn't get out of the end zone it would have been a 2 point safety and the Patriots would have to kick from their 20 leaving the Seahawks with time on the clock

Thats why they play the game. I love the way the media, fans and any person who happens to watch one game a year knows better than Pete Carroll who has coached at the highest level for many, many years. What if they ran Lynch and he fumbled? What would the whiners and excuse makers say then? The Patriots won the game. Tom Brady set passing records against the best defense in the NFL. Injuries are a part of the game period and all teams suffer through them.
All of the woulda, coulda, shoulda is crap! Give the team who has done nothing but win for the past 14 years some credit. The Patriots won the game fair and square but I'm sure all the haters will find some way to accuse them of "cheating" once again.
 

jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,439
5,547
2,810
Manila, Philippines
Thats why they play the game. I love the way the media, fans and any person who happens to watch one game a year knows better than Pete Carroll who has coached at the highest level for many, many years. What if they ran Lynch and he fumbled? What would the whiners and excuse makers say then? The Patriots won the game. Tom Brady set passing records against the best defense in the NFL. Injuries are a part of the game period and all teams suffer through them.
All of the woulda, coulda, shoulda is crap! Give the team who has done nothing but win for the past 14 years some credit. The Patriots won the game fair and square but I'm sure all the haters will find some way to accuse them of "cheating" once again.

+1

and another +1 on Steve's point.

and I'm sure had the catch been made and not intercepted, Pete Carroll would been hailed for everything he's ever done.
 

Ronm1

Member Sponsor
Feb 21, 2011
1,745
4
0
wtOMitMutb NH
Further with 18 seconds left after the interception, the Patriots were taking the snap from their 2 yard line which meant if Brady didn't get out of the end zone it would have been a 2 point safety and the Patriots would have to kick from their 20 leaving the Seahawks with time on the clock
A perfect example of how coaching style effects the team. Hawks are undisciplined. Bennett's faux pas was game, set, match. Pats were vulnerable at the 1 or 2 yd line in trying to kill the clock. Space is what they needed and he gave to them. Simple lack of situational football knowledge and discipline on the players part.
Pete is a gambler, worked at the end of the first half, different outcome at end of second half. Never mind the loutish behavior by Irvin.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing