Stillpoints versus Spikes-An Experiment

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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I have just completed a 9 month experiment comparing the impact of Stillpoint's to spikes under components and my speakers (Martin Logan Montis and JL F113 subwoofers). My findings will no doubt surprise no one who has done a similar comparison and evaluation, but, never the less I thought I would post my results because the end results led to such an improvement in my system that I want to share the results with anyone interested and especially ML owners, or anyone with a planar speaker.

I used Stillpoint Ultra SS and Ultra Mini for my Stillpoint comparisons and a series of spikes from Tip Toes, to Nordost to ML to my lifelong assortment from previous purchases. My equipment is on a heavy metal VTI rack on spikes on a hardwood floor. My speakers and subs are on the same hardwood floor. My electronics are BAT VK 32 SE tube preamp, Spectral DMA 260 amp, Meitner DAC, Oppo transport with an Ariston/SME V/Sepctral Reference on a Townsend isolation base on a separate extremely heavy (500 lbs) stand. My system's power is totally Shunyataized with a Triton, Typhon and a combination of Alpha Digital, Alpha HC, Anaconda, etc coming from 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits with Shunyata receptacles. My signal cables are MA-X MIT's. The speaker wire is MIT Oracle Matrix 90’s.

I will divide my experiment results into three groups: 1) component results; 2) Martin Login Montis results; and 3) JL F113 results

1) Component results were exactly what one would expect—the magnitude of improvement varied with the component involved, despite the fact that each shelf of the rack has its own spikes to serve as another stage of vibration control. My tubed preamp benefitted the most with the Stillpoint Ultra mini’s, although not as much as one might hope considering the price of $375 for three. However, having made this statement about the price, I am sufficiently an audiophile that even the small gain made it impossible for me to consider taking them out for use elsewhere. My optical transport seemed to benefit equally and much more than my DAC or amp.


2) When I first got my Martin Logan Montis’, I set them up using the stock spikes and legs which result in a back rake of about 7 degrees, which makes no sense to me since I bought them so get the razor sharp imaging that planar and planar electrostats can provide. To my taste, unless the screen of the Martin Logan is perpendicular to the floor, one is introducing propagation and image distortion that defeats the whole purpose of the screen. Obviously ML agrees because the screen on the Neolith is perpendicular to the floor.

Unfortunately, in addition to a second down-firing woofer (a detriment to my taste) one of the few points of distinction between the Montis and Summit X is the ability, on the Summit, to alter the angle of the screen by changing the length of the front and back feet that the spikes screw into. Although ML offered to sell me the Summit X feet that would allow me to get within 1 degree of perpendicular, at $68 each, I decided to try to do it on my own. Besides, 1 degree is not good enough, although I could have adjusted that out with the threads on the spikes.

Because the threaded screws on the spikes are not long enough, I could not obtain a firm enough anchor to truly stabilize the speaker because the rear screws only had about 1-2 threads on their sockets. The net result was insufficient stability when playing some bass and mid-bass heavy material like Dead Can Dance and The Art of Noise.

So I bought 8 Stillpoint Ultra’s and adapters for each of the 4 ML sockets on each speaker ( This was prior to the spike option). Never having had Stillpoints in my system before, prior to installing them on the ML’s, I put 4 under each of JL F113’s without the adapters and was blown away, but more on that latter. I then inserted the threaded adapters and put them into the ML’s and was barely able to get the screens truly perpendicular due to the Stillpoint adapter length.

The ML’s were more stable than with the ML spikes, but took very little to move them on hardwood floors. The sound improvement was barely noticeable, if present at all Unfortunately, my cleaning woman does not understand the concept of “no butt into the speakers when vacuuming”, meaning every week I had to re-aim them despite markings on the floor-truly a pain. Since the feet are $250 each and I needed either 6 or 8 for my JL’s, I lived with this configuration for about 6 months, until my audio OCD returned (a mixed blessing!)

After a particularly bad vacuuming session with my cleaning lady and Marty leaning on me, I called Martin Logan to see what I could do short of spending $2k+ on spiked Stillpoint’s for the ML’s and move the ones I already owned, which could not accept spikes, to the JL’s. I want to say that the people at ML service are wonderful, as they have been since I bought my first CLS’s when they first came out. When I explained my situation, they made the comment, “You have just told us what kind of listener you are since you want them perpendicular. You must be an audiophile who wants the full potential of the speaker”. Their comment put a smile on my face and groan in my gut because they were right!

I came up with an idea that they said should work and would probably be better than me buying replacement feet for the back of each speaker. I put the stock spikes on the ML's with some changes (no legs in front - spikes directly into the woofer cabinet set on the lowest setting and spikes into the legs in the rear, with the spikes extended as far as possible while insuring stability). This allowed for my preferred 0 angle rake on the screens, which I believe is essential.

The change was huge top to bottom, and that was compared to the ML's on Stillpoints, threaded into the ML's using Stillpoint adapters, not the legs that come with ML's. Everything became 2-3 layers clearer and much more distinct. Wonderful and beyond my memory and hopes. A must. (Note, I had tried this before late at night and got a different end result! I am sure that I am not the only audiophile on this site who has done the “same” experiment twice with different outcome!!!!!!)

While the sound of whatever source material was so much better, this change also helped me better determine the differences between various power cords for the ML’s. I had experimented with many, but to keep things short I will say that the difference is nothing short of amazing compared to the stock cords. To my taste Shunyata is the way to go. I tried 4 different PC’s from Shunyata and two from other after market vendors and concluded that for the best results one needs the Zitron circuitry and digital filtration, like in the Alpha Digital and Z-PC 10, compared to a plain Zitron. To my taste do not even waste your time with other brands.


3) Equally impressive to the impact of removing the non-spiked Stillpoints from my ML’s was moving the Stllpoints from the ML's to the JL F113's. I put four Ultra SS Stillpoint’s, merely sitting under each JL in the corners (just pressure mounted with no ability to screw them in. While position does change the sound, every position is better than the JL’s without the Stillpoint’s.

The bass changed so much it almost sounded like a different and better part of the music rather than merely tighter bass, which it was because the improvement (tighter and more articulate sound) did not stop at the 38 hz cut-off of the woof, but the improvements extended, with decreasing impact, but same qualitative improvement up to probably around 250 hz, if not higher.

I am quite familiar with Marty’s twin JL Gothams in a far superior room driven by a somewhat better preamp and better transport, but the essentially the same Meitner DAC and same MIT cables, Shunyata Triton and PC’s. Despite the edges in Marty’s system and room, I believe that the Stillpoint addition to my F113’s certainly give me equal and probably better bass.

So in summary, this experiment provided such an improvement, that my system sounds completely different and better than it did previously. I do not want to think about what it would sound like with spiked Stillpoint’s because the money necessary for that experiment is earmarked for a new Shunyata Sigma Digital cord for my DAC.

My final take away is it is all about the experience and in this case shifting existing equipment truly enhanced my listening experience.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Great stuff...very thorough and very detailed. Thanks for a great read...enjoy! And am a big fan here of Stillpoints...a big fan.
 

ack

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Russ, great stuff, but can you summarize where the Stillpoints (and which ones) ended up?

BTW, I agree with you, ML panels must be vertical to the floor - this is one of the reasons I didn't really like the Summit X and similar, because their character would be way off that way.
 

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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I ended up with ML spikes under the Montis, but with out the legs in front so that the screen rake moved vertical. It took some work to get the spike length right while maintaining integrity, but it is possible with the backs extended as far as possible the fronts retracted as far as possible.

Under the JL F113's there are 4 Stillpoint Ultra SS's, one in each corner (still working on the best location). Under my tube preamp I have three Stillpoint Ultra Mini's (one if front and two in back. Under my transport are three Nordost Pulsar Points, which actually seem to help more than the Stillpoint's under the premamp.

The hands down winner is the Ultra SS's under the F113's/
 

ack

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OK that's what I thought, and you said the impact on the preamp was minimal, much more evident on the subs...
 

bonzo75

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My component results greatly improved when I replaced Stillpoints with Shun Mook diamond resonators. Whenever I go to another audiophile's place to listen to his system I take these along and have a 100% strike rate with people preferring this to their stillpoints and symposium rollerblocks and Cerabase. Under components only though, not speakers, where I would actually want to compare Track Audio with Still points. Especially for the Montis, the ability to adjust the length of the spike of the Track Audio makes more sense to me because like many on the Logan forum I prefer to have the panels at a 90 degree to the perpendicular than the laid back angle the panels have.

So before some readers do come after me on the mooks, the Cable Co. in the US does offer a 30 day back trial guarantee.
 

Mobiusman

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My component results greatly improved when I replaced Stillpoints with Shun Mook diamond resonators. Whenever I go to another audiophile's place to listen to his system I take these along and have a 100% strike rate with people preferring this to their stillpoints and symposium rollerblocks and Cerabase. Under components only though, not speakers, where I would actually want to compare Track Audio with Still points. Especially for the Montis, the ability to adjust the length of the spike of the Track Audio makes more sense to me because like many on the Logan forum I prefer to have the panels at a 90 degree to the perpendicular than the laid back angle the panels have.

So before some readers do come after me on the mooks, the Cable Co. in the US does offer a 30 day back trial guarantee.

This is part of what I love about WBF. I share my findings and end up being educated. I guess I have more isolation experiments to perform.
 

asindc

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Interesting results. Thanks for taking time to post, Mobiusman. I also found that removing the legs from the front of my Spires made a very substantial difference for the better. Made me wonder why I had not tried it before, despite having read so many positive reports. I have also, however, experienced substantial positive experience in adding Stillpoints Ultra SSs to my Spires, to the extent that I consider them an essential part of my setup with respect to the speakers. (I had also tried Stillpoints SSs on my amps with very little effect.) I had tried the small Track Audio spikes (the $199 set, not the $675 set) on my Spires with a little improvement, but nothing worth really commenting on. Mobius, now that you've adjusted the panels vertically, you might want to try the Stillpoints again, as you might get different results this time.
 

bonzo75

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How do you get the panel vertical with still points
 

marty

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Track make beautifully engineered equipment, if you really want to isolate/decouple equipment then look at rolling air diaphragm isolators or correctly loaded, correct durometer visco elastic isolators.
Keith.

Keith, I am unfamiliar with these products. Can you identify of specify these products exactly so I may consider purchasing them/trying them?
 

Mobiusman

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you might want to try the Stillpoints again said:
I always had them perpendicular. The problem was my Stillpoints could not accept spikes, which I feel are essential for the ML's. I suspect that Stillpoints with spikes would be even better, but at this point I want to make my next expenditure on a Shunyata Sigma digital power cord
 

bonzo75

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I always had them perpendicular. The problem was my Stillpoints could not accept spikes, which I feel are essential for the ML's. I suspect that Stillpoints with spikes would be even better, but at this point I want to make my next expenditure on a Shunyata Sigma digital power cord

I agree spikes are essential, the ability to make the panel vertical, and if you have a downward firing woofer like with the Summits, then the spikes should be tall enough to increase the distance between the woofer and the floor - this greatly improves the sonics
 

bonzo75

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bonzo75

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I always had them perpendicular. The problem was my Stillpoints could not accept spikes, which I feel are essential for the ML's. I suspect that Stillpoints with spikes would be even better, but at this point I want to make my next expenditure on a Shunyata Sigma digital power cord

There is also this thing under Logans that is popular in the UK. It is actually decoupling rather than stillpoints/track audio which anchor it to the ground. http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?15476-townshend-stella-stands-under-summit-x

Also, other tweaks you can think of is taking out the woofer components and putting them in a separate box connected by wires. This will greatly reduce the vibrations of the panels
 

JackD201

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asindc

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I always had them perpendicular. The problem was my Stillpoints could not accept spikes, which I feel are essential for the ML's. I suspect that Stillpoints with spikes would be even better, but at this point I want to make my next expenditure on a Shunyata Sigma digital power cord

Stillpoints has spike adapters now for the SSs.
 

Mobiusman

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Not in free space but in a down firing scenario there are effects on Q and loading. Changes in gap are analogous to changing the dimensions of a port or horn as far as I recall.
This is exactly why I prefer the Montis and two JL F 113 subs to the Summit X. I am a bass hound because I love bass and because it sets the stage for the overall sound.

It seems fairly logical that if all of the bass transducers are in phase and propagating from the same plane that, at least in the sweet spot, one should have the most cohesive bass. Over the past 40 years with more than 10 systems using a number of different subwoofer designs and brands with a seemingly endless array of woofer locations relative to the main speakers, this has been my experience. I am lucky to have the room to have both my speakers and listening positions fairly free from room effects, making it possible to have relatively cohesive imaging top to bottom.

In my current situation with the woofers immediately inboard to each Montis, but in the same plane, and lots of experimentation with the phase, crossover, volume and ELF settings on the JL, I have the best bass and imaging I have ever had in my audio career.

To circle back to my original intent by starting this thread, is the value of Stillpoints and similar devices under woofers or large speakers with substantial woofers. The value seems to extend beyond the range of the woofers. I also want to add that the noise floor reduction and other benefits that I am deriving from the Shunyata products I have in my system (Triton, Typhon, Zitron PC's, and digital PC filtration where needed) is also a huge factor with the end result that I am calling the best bass and imaging in my audiophile career.
 
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bonzo75

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Russ,

Since you are in NJ, I would be interested in your take on the GT Audio hybrid planars. These are talked about a lot on audiocircle, and I have heard them, they are hybrids like Logans, but with ribbons and magnets instead of Stat panels. There are woofers well integrated for mid and low bass, and they are both gentle and lively. The cost is low, just over $6k, but that is because of lower margins. The magnets are high quality. I preferred them to my Summits (not X), but would like your take as you have the Montis plus two subs. You can contact Greg at gtaudioworks@gmail.com, he should be able to demo them. Quite a nice chap, the one man designer and manufacturer.
 

allvinyl

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I always had them perpendicular. The problem was my Stillpoints could not accept spikes, which I feel are essential for the ML's. I suspect that Stillpoints with spikes would be even better, but at this point I want to make my next expenditure on a Shunyata Sigma digital power cord

Both the Ultra SS and latest Ultra 5 version can be used with spikes we have made specifically for that purpose. The Ultra 5 spike fits into the 1/2-20 tap on the beveled side. Or, you can order the Ultra SS spike and use it in the 1/4-20 tap of the flat side of the Ultra 5. The Ultra SS spike can be used in either end of the Ultra SS.

John
 

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