True dynamic expression

My system sails through the horn blast in A-Train (For Duke) for starters and through the much more difficult passages on Clarity's Witches Brew Box Set. I guess I do ok.

ack said:

So this is the important distinction: with true dynamic expression, I would expect only those instruments responsible for it to increase in loudness and become more present, while everything else remains the same. This is what we clearly hear in a concert hall with unamplified music, when, say, the brass section or chorus suddenly "screams" over the rest of the orchestra, as the score dictates.

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I agree. This is what I experience in my system.

ack said:

(...) So this is the important distinction: with true dynamic expression, I would expect only those instruments responsible for it to increase in loudness and become more present, while everything else remains the same. This is what we clearly hear in a concert hall with unamplified music, when, say, the brass section or chorus suddenly "screams" over the rest of the orchestra, as the score dictates. (...)

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This is very relevant either in large orchestral pieces (the end of Shostakovitch 5th is one of my favorite examples) or in chamber music. In chamber music an instrument playing loud must disappear slowly without contaminating the space of others. In piano songs, such as Schubert wonderful Winterreise "Der Leiermann" (The organ grinder, the last song of the cycle), the piano tune dynamics can not interfere with the singer expression, otherwise it will spoil the drama of the song.

ack said:

So this is the important distinction: with true dynamic expression, I would expect only those instruments responsible for it to increase in loudness and become more present, while everything else remains the same. This is what we clearly hear in a concert hall with unamplified music, when, say, the brass section or chorus suddenly "screams" over the rest of the orchestra, as the score dictates.

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lately I've been really enjoying some 15ips 1/4" master dubs of Ben Webster live in a jazz club in Europe in the late 70's; I have three of these tapes. these involve not only Ben's tenor 'live', but also the drum kit. and you have a piano and the ambient information. what's great is the lack of any limiting or compression in the tape. and they nailed it.

then there is the Jeton direct to disc 'Chris Barber Band', side 2, St Louis Blues. this 10 minute cut features a trombone and jazz guitar which then morphs into a full tilt boogie big band blast. a wild ride where the trombone taxes the dynamic range and subtlety of the deep bass and mid bass.

(I am not expressing any new ideas here, just clarifying and setting the stage). So, how many of you would say your system has true dynamic expression, though not necessarily ultimate dynamic range? How would you rate your amplifiers in that regard? Your source components? Speakers?

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I'm happy with what I hear in this area. no apparent limits with amps, speakers or source. I do have exotic decoupling of sources to keep them linear at full tilt boogie.

I'd add that the amp-speaker relationship is essential for the dynamic expression. what happens with the 1st watt? and can that degree of delicacy be maintained if other things are pushing the limits? can the different threads of musical flow all exist without that loss of cohesion?

this subject is central to my audio agenda. thanks for bringing it up.

one really telling exercise is about once a month I visit a jazz club 5 minutes from my home, have dinner, listen for 20-30 minutes and then go right up the hill to home and listen.

After a brief sojourn away from this forum, I have decided to jump back into the fray....
Particularly since ack has brought up a very interesting and appropriate thread, IMHO.
As to dynamic expression, I have NEVER heard any system that can do justice to the 'real' sound of unamplified instruments in a concert hall. ( or for that matter in a private setting).
To demonstrate this, I have on numerous occasions played my acoustic steel string Dreadnought Taylor 810 guitar for the listener...and then a playback of the same instrument via either a reel or any other playback that the listener desires. The difference between the 'real' and the 'reproduced' is VERY obvious. The question is what is causing the vast difference in dynamic expression, amongst other issues?? Is it the speed of the speakers, the speed and power of the amp, the preamp, the front end loosing information or a combo of all of the above, or is it something completely different???? BTW, I have done this 'AB' on some of the best systems and no matter what the system, the difference is clear and indisputable.

I don't think anybody here is chasing the Quixotic dream of reproducing the actual event, whatever that is. I think we are all interested in a much lower target, a realistic portrayal. That is not to say that that in itself cannot provide highly satisfying experiences.

JackD201 said:

I don't think anybody here is chasing the Quixotic dream of reproducing the actual event, whatever that is. I think we are all interested in a much lower target, a realistic portrayal. That is not to say that that in itself cannot provide highly satisfying experiences.

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My target is high. Go for the gold !

I fully agree in the sense that you can't squeeze orange juice out of a lemon but whatever the juice is, it's useless unless you drink it

At some point you transduce the energy and that transformed energy will be propagated through a medium. How and how well that is done is the challenge.

It's also all to do with perspective. Air has compliance, and distance of the microphone to the instrument vs distance of the speaker to the listener makes all the difference.

I find that about 90% of the time when audiophiles talk about dynamics, they are really talking about distortion. This is because audio equipment distorts somewhat, and our ears interpret that as loudness, because they use the higher ordered harmonics rather than fundamentals to detect how loud a sound actually is.

So I avoid using the word as it has been abused too much and carries too much connotation.

I find that when a system is right, it can play loud without sounding loud. You find out how truly loud it actually is by finding yourself unable to be heard by someone sitting beside you unless you yell (or get a sound pressure level meter ). That's how it should work. If someone tells you to 'turn it down, that's too loud', its a good indication that you may have a problem that is causing distortion.

A good example of this phenomena is the use of SETs, which often have a comment in the reviews about how they are way more dynamic than they should have any right to for their low power, or something to that effect. The reality is that they are not more dynamic than any other amp. What is really happening is psychoacoustics. Its all happening in the brain. This is because at about 20% of full power, the higher ordered harmonics (loudness cues) come into play- and they are generally showing up on transients. If OTOH the speakers used with SETs actually truly do have enough efficiency, this effect can be avoided to some degree. What this means is that for a 7-watt SET, you need about 103db or so in most rooms to really make it fly. Less than that and the amp is making too much distortion and will have 'dynamics'.

All amps suffer this issue to some degree (no one gets out alive- Jim Morrison)! It is possible to minimize this type of distortion in the design, but the designer has to be aware first of this issue and design accordingly. Unfortunately the result may not measure all that well on the bench as psychoacoustics take a back seat to bench measurements; thats the way the industry works right now...

Atmasphere, always appreciate your posts...very very clear, precise and educational. One of my all-time great experiences was listening to the Arrakis setup in Hong Kong...where Kurt Cobain on Nirvana Unplugged was effortless, full-sized and the CROWD behind him was a wall of people where even the 'best' systems i have heard really distort that opening track. Here, it was just a large crowd of people...and sure enough, just as you say, when i turned to the Dealer, i had to shout for him to hear me 3 feet away, and i could not hear my own voice (speaking at quiet room levels). But it was effortless in the room without any sense of 'the volume thrill' you get with, i suppose, a form of distortion that makes you feel like there is volume.

...like a car designed to move at 175+mph that is 'loafing' at 135-145mph...effortless, quiet (incredibly calm and deceivingly so actually!) vs an econo-car that is literally shaking itself to pieces trying to break 90mph. (i've been in both situations...autobahn in a topnotch car with all the tire pressure checked, and handled by an excellent driver...and a cabbie trying to get us to the airport so we dont miss our flight...you decide which is which! )

I like the car analogy.