NAS/Ethernet

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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What hardware and software are needed to take this route into a DAC that takes Ethernet inputs?

Examples of what you've already set up and put together would be really helpful as well.

TIA!
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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Jack,
This depends a little on the DAC. Most ethernet DAC use DLNA/UPNP to communicate over ethernet. They are simple to set up. They appear as a device on the network. If you have a music server on the same network, you can play music over DLNA to the DAC. It's easy to setup.

The AES developed an ethernet standard years ago called AES67 for music over ethernet. There are a few different implementations; eg. Ravenna, Dante and AVB. Until now, only pro audio has embraced AES67. The protocol is designed for all AES67 devices on the same network to work together. Merging announced a consumer line of DACs at CES called the NADAC based on ravenna. Merging has been using ravenna for 3-4 years now and has an ASIO driver which is stable. It can play all rates up to and including DSD256 on the merging gear. It interfaces with audio playback software exactly the same as any other DAC with an ASIO driver on windows. There is also a core audio driver for Ravenna on mac.

AES67 and Ravenna in particular, are vastly superior to the common DLNA/UPNP method of using ethernet with consumer DACs. For example, there are not audiophile DLNA DACs capable of multi channel. DLNA cannot synchronize multiple units together and there's no ASIO for DLNA.

One of the coolest advantages that Ravenna and PTPv2 make possible is multi DAC/ADC sync. This is already being used in recordings. I know channel classics and L2 as well as many other classical recoding are being made over Ravenna networks on multiple merging ADCs in a concert hall. They are all sync' using PTPv2 which claims under a nano second of clock drift between devices. I think these are some the best DSD and PCM recordings available.

PTPv2 will make its way into playback very soon. Genelec uses a version of AES called AVB. Genelec will eventually move to speakers with IP inputs. Here's a demo of how they will be sync'd.


I don't have one yet, but I ordered a Merging Hapi a couple of days ago with the premium cards in and out. It uses the same Ravenna AES67 ethernet that the consumer NADACs will use. I will use it with both my mac Jriver server and my windows Jriver server.
 
Last edited:

Eichenbaum

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2013
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I've been using NAS Synology DS410 + Audio Station from Synology (server sw) + DS Audio from Synology (iPad app) + Switch + Vivaldi Upsampler. This solution is in my case better then the Aurender S10 + Upsampler + USB. The new DS 415+ from Synology is DSD compatible.
 

edorr

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May 10, 2010
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What hardware and software are needed to take this route into a DAC that takes Ethernet inputs?

Examples of what you've already set up and put together would be really helpful as well.

TIA!

In this setup, most likely you are going to be controlling your library from an app running on iPad. The gold standard in function features is the the Jriver/JRemote combo. Get a cheap machine to run Jriver as DLNA server and library manager, story library on NAS, and control with Jremote. Works brilliantly and is dirt cheap.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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They typical way that an ethernet DAC work is that they appear as a digital media renderer (DMR) on a DLNA (digital living network alliance) network. You would run a DMS (digital media server) JRiver is one example or a NAS with a player. Synology has its "Music Station". There are various players out there, and I know a number of audiophiles with the CH Precision C1 have debated endlessly that different players sound different.

If you're after What's Best, there are a huge number of variables that seemingly cannot make a difference but does.

As an example, in HiFi Critic, they found that different brands of NAS and SSD can sound different.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm

Unfortunately, I think that "brand" is too gross a definition. I found, for example, that two different models of Kingston SSD sound different. I have not found a specification or measurement that can reliably give me a way to figure if a particular SSD would sound better or worse. Although, I do find in general that MLCs do sound better than SLCs. I haven't yet started exploring TLCs or serial NANDs.

That's why those friends of mine will probably never come to a conclusion. They all use the same DAC, but all they see is the interface (the player). The underlying infrastructure - the NAS, the SSDs inside the NAS, even the router used (wired or WiFi) are different. Since they only see the interface, many audiophiles assign the sonic difference to the user interface (the player). I shocked more than one audiophile when I took out my cellphone and "threw" a 24/192 file at their DAC.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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They typical way that an ethernet DAC work is that they appear as a digital media renderer (DMR) on a DLNA (digital living network alliance) network. You would run a DMS (digital media server) JRiver is one example or a NAS with a player. Synology has its "Music Station". There are various players out there, and I know a number of audiophiles with the CH Precision C1 have debated endlessly that different players sound different.

If you're after What's Best, there are a huge number of variables that seemingly cannot make a difference but does.

As an example, in HiFi Critic, they found that different brands of NAS and SSD can sound different.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm

Unfortunately, I think that "brand" is too gross a definition. I found, for example, that two different models of Kingston SSD sound different. I have not found a specification or measurement that can reliably give me a way to figure if a particular SSD would sound better or worse. Although, I do find in general that MLCs do sound better than SLCs. I haven't yet started exploring TLCs or serial NANDs.

That's why those friends of mine will probably never come to a conclusion. They all use the same DAC, but all they see is the interface (the player). The underlying infrastructure - the NAS, the SSDs inside the NAS, even the router used (wired or WiFi) are different. Since they only see the interface, many audiophiles assign the sonic difference to the user interface (the player). I shocked more than one audiophile when I took out my cellphone and "threw" a 24/192 file at their DAC.

This is one of those areas where there are so many variables and "opinions" and absolutely no consensus on anything, you're better off just getting the easiest to configure and use setup, and call it a day.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
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Isn't that like saying that there are so many variables and opinions with turntables, so you are better off just getting the easiest to use package that goes round and round and call it a day?

This is, after all, the What's Best Forum....... or did I log in to the wrong place today?
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Man this thread just made me realize how much more I've got to learn! Nice to know I've got you guys to show me the way. Thanks guys! Hope you don't mind me bugging you!

I'll likely be looking at a wired approach since the server will be located on a nearby rack and not use my existing home server.
 

es347

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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..now if only you had a few FLAC files :p
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
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or A LOT ;)
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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Isn't that like saying that there are so many variables and opinions with turntables, so you are better off just getting the easiest to use package that goes round and round and call it a day?

This is, after all, the What's Best Forum....... or did I log in to the wrong place today?

The difference is with TT there appears to be some method to the madness and some level of consensus about what works / sounds best. Some of this digital stuff is 100% voodoo and opinions are entirely random. Now if you want to personally test all the permutations at home to determine personal preference fine. Even then, if you find JPlay works miracles for you, you will find respected digital cognoscenti declaring you the gullible victim of placebo effect. I don't have the patience for it.
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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I'm with Erik to some extent as well. I just want a digital interface which isn't susceptible to upgraditis. I find the little unexplainable upgrades to distract from, not add to musical enjoyment. I believe ethernet goes a long way to further my goal.

1. The protocol already has galvanic isolation, unlike USB.
2. Data is checked on both ends so what goes in is exactly what came out.
3. The bits are delivered in packets; timing is irrelevant to jitter, unlike s/pdif or AES.
4. The biggest adavantage is that the servers can be totally removed from the listening environment.
 

edorr

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I'm with Erik to some extent as well. I just want a digital interface which isn't susceptible to upgraditis. I find the little unexplainable upgrades to distract from, not add to musical enjoyment. I believe ethernet goes a long way to further my goal. The protocol already has galvanic isolation, unlike USB. Data is checked on both ends so what goes in is exactly what came out. The bits are delivered in packets. Therefore, timing is irrelevant to jitter, unlike s/pdif or AES. Of course, the biggest adavtage is that the servers can be totally removed from the listening environment.

If there was a robust way to stream over ethernet and apply DRC upstream I would go down this path and get out of the audiophile USB cards, cables, powersupplies business in a heartbeat. If Jriver irons out the apparent problems doing this in v20 I might jump on board. Of course, my megabucks USB source will fetch close to nothing on the used market, so switching to streaming could still be poor economics because of sunk cost.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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There is a way. We've talked about that before. :)

I'm not convinced it is ready for primetime, and I also don't want to change hardware. Keep us posted about your pioneering work, and others may follow suit once you figured it out. I'm still banking on JRiver 20, although I'd be reluctant to have to switch to acourate for convolution. Dirac is working fine for me at the moment.
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
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Massachusetts/Toronto
Unfortunately, I think that "brand" is too gross a definition. I found, for example, that two different models of Kingston SSD sound different. I have not found a specification or measurement that can reliably give me a way to figure if a particular SSD would sound better or worse. Although, I do find in general that MLCs do sound better than SLCs. I haven't yet started exploring TLCs or serial NANDs.

The place to start choosing an SSD for music is to find one that is optimized for READs over WRITEs. These do exist because they are used in decision support, data lake technology where one might have 10k users running queries 24/7. 90% of their operations are READs not Writes. My teams have built such systems. Oh, we don't use USB just Ethernet and up. It is always easier to scale down than up.

The ratio or downloads (WRITES) to READS (playing or streaming music) in a NAS or music server is very low, that is, many more READS than WRITES.
 

nonesup

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Feb 15, 2017
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The place to start choosing an SSD for music is to find one that is optimized for READs over WRITEs. These do exist because they are used in decision support, data lake technology where one might have 10k users running queries 24/7. 90% of their operations are READs not Writes. My teams have built such systems. Oh, we don't use USB just Ethernet and up. It is always easier to scale down than up.

The ratio or downloads (WRITES) to READS (playing or streaming music) in a NAS or music server is very low, that is, many more READS than WRITES.


Hi.
I would like to know the brand and model of this type of SSD
 

Pb Blimp

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Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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I'm with Erik to some extent as well. I just want a digital interface which isn't susceptible to upgraditis. I find the little unexplainable upgrades to distract from, not add to musical enjoyment. I believe ethernet goes a long way to further my goal.

1. The protocol already has galvanic isolation, unlike USB.
2. Data is checked on both ends so what goes in is exactly what came out.
3. The bits are delivered in packets; timing is irrelevant to jitter, unlike s/pdif or AES.
4. The biggest adavantage is that the servers can be totally removed from the listening environment.

Agree with all of this. These are some of the reasons why I now design Ethernet interfaces rather than USB. I also recently measured the difference in jitter on two almost identical designs, Ethernet versus XMOS USB:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0

The one thing about Ethernet that every user should be aware of is the potential for leakage noise across the transformers. The way to eliminate this is to earth-ground the DC common in the router or switch. This is easier when using a LPS to power it. It is also helpful to use an isolator in the Ethernet cable, like the EMO EN-70e. These two simple steps can reduce the noise floor significantly.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
98
18
138
Massachusetts/Toronto
Hi.
I would like to know the brand and model of this type of SSD

In haste- I know that MELCO uses them in their units. Perhaps one can get them from their parent company Buffalo. I'll look into it further. Ice and snow here and MANY delayed emails. I should write a paper on this subject.
 

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