Amir's CES 2015 High-end Audio Report and Picture Thread

CGabriel · Jan 18, 2015

Not to put too fine of a point on it but I do have past experience in this specific field. During the Cold War, the Russians (and U.S.) were experimenting with ELF as a possible weapon. Experiments indicated that certain frequencies disrupt normal brain function with resulting psychological effects such as fear, irritability, confusion and emotional reactions. The Russians went as far as setting up a massive transmitter such that the anti-pole corresponded to a location in the U.S. All of the theories and early experiments came from Tesla's work and most of them are still classified.

This is not to disparage Ted's device which to me would be harmless and relatively benign since it could not possibly approach a 1/4 wave length of frequency to achieve a wave launch. That is not to say that it would not be functional in the near-field - it certainly would. It just wouldn't be able to transmit over a distance which is good because if it did you might get a visit from certain men in black suits. (Just kidding on that one - maybe ). Additionally, the so called Schumann resonance of 7.83Hz is just one of the major natural frequencies generated by the earth. So again something that is emitting a relatively weak EM field of a natural Earth frequency is very unlikely to cause any ill effect. There are many people in the "new age" crowd that might even consider it beneficial.

I look forward to Amir's further experience with the device. It sounds very interesting. And just to clarify the professional relationship issue - I have none with Ted and am not a fan on a personal level and am quite sure he feels the same about me. However, I think you guys could cut the guy a little slack and let him have a voice here.

Orb · Jan 18, 2015

On health aspects,
one other consideration is also the power/strength of the transmitter as both Don/CGabriel have touched upon.

Funny enough interesting how many do not consider the power of the WLAN transmission in their mobile devices and laptops; some of these devices do have a moderately powerful maximum setting that "may" be consideration for long term close use....
Cheers
Orb

jkeny · Jan 18, 2015

My take on the Atmosphere is this:
- it's using two channels (binaural) outputting at RF frequencies to generate beats which can be at any timing desired i.e ELF is possible doing this.
- it takes advantage of a well know psychoacoustic phenomena called Comodulation Masking Release (CMR). CMR is where the perception of a pure tone is improved when some signal at a frequency unrelated to the pure tone beats in unison to it or as the academic papers put it "in modulated noise the presence of a masking energy spectrally distant from the signal frequency improves the detectability of the signal (hall et al 1984)The critical factor responsible for this improvement of threshold appears to be temporal coherence of the masker envelope across different critical bands".

So, here's my background to above - premise: this works on the basis that all our playback systems have underlying noise modulation (maybe some more than others) & this noise modulation interferes with our auditory perception - squashing dynamics, causing temporal smear. Noise mod can arise from a number of areas - one of which is PS modulation. This might explain the difference between night & day listening referred to in one of the videos.

So, IMO, the Atmosphere system is generating a range of LF beats using RF signals. Once this is established then profiles can be created to perceptually improve certain temporal parts of the music - different genres/styles of music will have distinct temporal fingerprints & using Atmosphere to generate beats with the same fingerprint our perception is improved of those parts of the music signal which have the same temporal signature. This follows what occurs in nature - A common characteristic of natural sounds is that the level fluctuations in different frequency regions are coherent.

This explains, IMO, why the effect takes a number of seconds to be noticed when a profile is switched - it takes a while for our perceptions to form auditory streams, which is what is at the core of this, IMO.

Producing audible sound from ultrasound has been around since the 1960s but in the intervening decades the focus has been on producing audio of a reasonable quality - I think this is the first time it's being used in a CMR type system where the quality doesn't matter to producing the temporal beats necessary.

Joe Whip · Jan 18, 2015

Gee, I'll pass. No need to expose myself, wife and kids to any more stuff than we are already subject to. Some stuff we can't avoid. This stuff I can avoid.

jkeny · Jan 18, 2015

Joe Whip said:
Gee, I'll pass. No need to expose myself, wife and kids to any more stuff than we are already subject to. Some stuff we can't avoid. This stuff I can avoid.

Yes, maybe a better approach would be to find ways of preventing noise modulation in the first place (a difficult thing to achieve) - if I'm right Synergistic Research have approached it from a different direction.

jkeny · Jan 18, 2015

CGabriel said:
So Amir, since the brain generates EM waves and it functions at frequencies from less than 1Hz to about 16Hz and brainwave entrainment is a known phenomenon - how do you know that it isn't just your perception that has been altered as opposed to any actual in room acoustic effect? In other words, it could all be in your head.

Does it matter? You perceive what you perceive.

Amir, & others I trust, report that it has an affect on auditory perception - my theory of it's operation is that it precisely targets what we know about auditory perception (CMR) & cleverly utilises this .

BruceD · Jan 18, 2015

CGabriel;301879 And just to clarify the professional relationship issue - I have none with Ted and am not a fan on a personal level and am quite sure he feels the same about me.[/QUOTE said:
Funny CG should mention that --I personally wouldn't buy any Synergistic product--besides being a rude bunch to converse with--I think most of the products -and I've experienced the demos at numerous shows are dubious at best re sonic

improvements.

BruceD

CGabriel · Jan 18, 2015

jkeny said:
Does it matter? You perceive what you perceive.

Amir, & others I trust, report that it has an affect on auditory perception - my theory of it's operation is that it precisely targets what we know about auditory perception (CMR) & cleverly utilises this .

just out of curiosity, do you KNOW this is how it works or is this your supposition

There is a profound difference between an actual in room acoustic change and a change in perception based upon an influence of brain function.

Perhaps the designer would care to chime in?

jkeny · Jan 18, 2015

CGabriel said:
just out of curiosity, do you KNOW this is how it works or is this your supposition

Just my supposition based on what I've read on psychoacoustics (particularly Audio Stream Analysis, ASA) Comodulation Masking Release (CMR) & the clues given in the videos & reports that my explanation seems to reconcile:
- the apparent confusion between 8Hz & RF signal production
- switching between Atmosphere profiles seems to take a couple of seconds to to be perceived (i.e quick A/B won't show it's effect) - typical of the perception of audio streams & their formation (something I've been talking about in why I think A/B testing s limited to certain types of differences & not suitable for recognising psychoacoustic differences which require longer timeframes)
- I'm convinced that most audio systems suffer from low level noise modulation & Atmosphere generates it's own modulated signal which acts as CMR for certain parts of the audio signal making some audio streams better perceived
- I've seen the anecdotal reports of the perceptual impressions resulting from stabilising very low frequency noise modulation & it resonates with what I've seen reported for the effects of Atmosphere - they all appear to be related to stronger audio stream formation

There is a profound difference between an actual in room acoustic change and a change in perception based upon an influence of brain function.

Perhaps the designer would care to chime in?

Yes, it would be interesting to hear from the designer - I could well be very wrong in my supposition!
What would be interesting would be an analysis of the sound with/without the device turned on but I expect that a very long FFT would be required to pick up the low frequencies & the temporal characteristics

caesar · Jan 24, 2015

amirm said:
MBL:

...I must admit, I don't "get" these speakers. They were omni-directional of course. They sounded tubby to me with plenty of cabinet resonances.

Amir, check this out from John Atkinson, a Wilson Audio lover: "...I used my Astell&Kern AK100 portable player to play some of my own stereo hi-rez recordings, this time plugging its TosLink output into the N31. I played the 24/88.2k master files for my recording of the Portland State Chamber Choir’s new CD Into Unknown Worlds, specifically “Amazing Grace” and “Northern Lights.” I was transported back into the warm, enveloping acoustic of St. Stephen’s Church in Portland.

These recordings sound surprisingly different on the various systems on which I listened to them at CES, but other than the unique presentation offered by Edgar Choueiri’s Bacch-SP system, the MBL system got closest to the original event.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/noble-sound-mbl

That's why people are crazy about them. But some just don't get. And it's ok.

amirm · Jan 24, 2015

I can live with that

.

caesar · Jan 24, 2015

Thank you for the great coverage, Amir!

prerich · Feb 6, 2015

garylkoh said:
It's just semantics - because radio is based on electromagnetic principles, some people equate radio waves to electromagnetic waves. Hence, RF = the entire band of electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths theoretically from the length of the Universe down to Planck constant. Ted Denney probably used this less common interpretation.

Nevertheless, in common usage "radio" spectrum range from megahertz to gigahertz..... as was pointed out by various members of WBF.

Interestingly, ELF as used by submarine radios use different technology than what the layman knows as "antennas" to transmit/receive.

Ok...and now stop Gary

former CTR1 (USN)

cat6man · Jul 31, 2015

jkeny said:
My take on the Atmosphere is this:
- it's using two channels (binaural) outputting at RF frequencies to generate beats which can be at any timing desired i.e ELF is possible doing this.
- it takes advantage of a well know psychoacoustic phenomena called Comodulation Masking Release (CMR). CMR is where the perception of a pure tone is improved when some signal at a frequency unrelated to the pure tone beats in unison to it or as the academic papers put it "in modulated noise the presence of a masking energy spectrally distant from the signal frequency improves the detectability of the signal (hall et al 1984)The critical factor responsible for this improvement of threshold appears to be temporal coherence of the masker envelope across different critical bands".

So, here's my background to above - premise: this works on the basis that all our playback systems have underlying noise modulation (maybe some more than others) & this noise modulation interferes with our auditory perception - squashing dynamics, causing temporal smear. Noise mod can arise from a number of areas - one of which is PS modulation. This might explain the difference between night & day listening referred to in one of the videos.

So, IMO, the Atmosphere system is generating a range of LF beats using RF signals. Once this is established then profiles can be created to perceptually improve certain temporal parts of the music - different genres/styles of music will have distinct temporal fingerprints & using Atmosphere to generate beats with the same fingerprint our perception is improved of those parts of the music signal which have the same temporal signature. This follows what occurs in nature - A common characteristic of natural sounds is that the level fluctuations in different frequency regions are coherent.

This explains, IMO, why the effect takes a number of seconds to be noticed when a profile is switched - it takes a while for our perceptions to form auditory streams, which is what is at the core of this, IMO.

Producing audible sound from ultrasound has been around since the 1960s but in the intervening decades the focus has been on producing audio of a reasonable quality - I think this is the first time it's being used in a CMR type system where the quality doesn't matter to producing the temporal beats necessary.

a little late, but just found this thread.
fascinating.

i seem to remember a proposal to create a speaker via the intermodulation of two high frequency carriers, viz:
one RF carrier at f1, the other at f1+music, so that the difference frequency (f1+music-f1)=music

i believe the concept was demonstrated, but the quality wasn't exactly perfect

so, shouldn't this be relatively easy to detect?
assume they generate f1+x and f1+y, the sum and difference frequencies assuming simple 2nd order modulation are (x+y) and (x-y).
while (x+y) and (x-y) may be ELF, presumably f1 could be detected coming out of the equipment being considered?
anyone with a spectrum analyzer?

Blizzard · Jan 16, 2016

Hi Amir,

I have heard one of the biggest highlight's of CES 2016 as far as high end audio is concerned was the demo of the new ESS 9038pro chip. Did you happen to make it to this demo? A guess it was a real big deal. Bob Stuart from Meridian was there talking about MQA, all kinds of groundbreaking info that's essential to the future of high end audio was discussed.

To me this is what I regret most about missing CES 2016.

amirm · Jan 16, 2016

You are in 2015 thread Blizz, not 2016

. But no, I did not see their suite. They were probably in the back of the south hall, not where the high-end audio companies were. I just did not have time to cover that section.

Blizzard · Jan 16, 2016

amirm said:
You are in 2015 thread Blizz, not 2016 . But no, I did not see their suite. They were probably in the back of the south hall, not where the high-end audio companies were. I just did not have time to cover that section.

Oops!

. Anyways just ran into Dustin from ESS in the vegetable isle at the grocery store tonight and had a very good conversation. I guess it was a pretty impressive demonstration. The simple cheap evaluation board was blowing the minds of everyone who attended

amirm · Jan 16, 2016

Blizzard said:
Oops! . Anyways just ran into Dustin from ESS in the vegetable isle at the grocery store tonight and had a very good conversation. I guess it was a pretty impressive demonstration. The simple cheap evaluation board was blowing the minds of everyone who attended

Do they have the eval unit available for sale? If so, I will pick one up to play with.

Blizzard · Jan 16, 2016

amirm said:
Do they have the eval unit available for sale? If so, I will pick one up to play with.

No, maybe March at the earliest. And who gets the chips first will be in priority sequence based on the biggest clients who move the most volume. My guess is Q3 before we see any finished DAC's using them. Perhaps lots of new unveil's at RMAF this year?

Amir's CES 2015 High-end Audio Report and Picture Thread

Industry Expert

New Member

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

Industry Expert

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Banned

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Similar threads