Wall behind a Planar speaker

audioarcher · Jan 10, 2015

Ideally you want dipole speakers (this applies to any type of speaker really) to be far enough from the front wall, so the ear/brain does not confuse the reflected sound with the direct sound. I don't know how many ms delay off hand or the exact distances needed, but I know what works well for my situation after years of experimentation. My Innersound Kayas are 8 ft from the front wall, I sit 8 ft from them, and I have about 9 to 10 ft behind my head to the back wall. I have some GIK acoustic panels in the middle of the front wall with a carpet over that covering a large window, but nothing directly behind my speakers.

If you don't have enough room to pull them out that far you can heavily treat the front wall but, that can over dampen the sound. Also a lot of speakers need the bass reinforcement of being close to a room boundary so you can not pull them out that far. Thankfully my speakers have adjustable bass output so I can place the speakers further out into the room without losing the foundation of the music.

bonzo75 · Jan 10, 2015

Jonathan90 said:
Years of trial and errors eventually led to present set-up - at day’s end it’s really all about the treated space.

HI what are these? They look a bit like Analysis Amphitryons but can't see the ribbon, with those small discs being Shun Mook Mpingo discs. Can you please describe your set up?

Barry · Jan 10, 2015

audioarcher said:
Ideally you want dipole speakers (this applies to any type of speaker really) to be far enough from the front wall, so the ear/brain does not confuse the reflected sound with the direct sound. I don't know how many ms delay off hand or the exact distances needed, but I know what works well for my situation after years of experimentation.

10 ms + is the recommended delay which works out to a minimum of 5.7 feet.

bonzo75 · Jan 10, 2015

Big Dog RJ said:
I then had to re-locate the entire system and panels to where there were more solid walls. This dramatically improved the overall sound, especially with the Apogee's. Fantastic depth and centre fill of soundstage, great dynamic presence overall. However, one HUGE problem, the main door to the house opened right between the panels! And to top that, whenever the door was opened to let someone in, it nearly knocked off the left panel!

Solution to this problem; migrated to Australia! Now everything is sweet & dandy...
Cheers, RJ

Hi Big Dog, would the sound be ok when the door was closed?

audioarcher · Jan 10, 2015

Barry said:
10 ms + is the recommended delay which works out to a minimum of 5.7 feet.

Thanks Barry.

I actually have the speakers a little further out from the front wall and wider spaced than this pic now.

Bruce B · Jan 10, 2015

I've had 2 sets of di/bipole speakers in my studio. The wall they were placed against was very absorptive and sucked every bit of life out the speakers. So I would advise not to use any kind of heavy drapery behind them.

bonzo75 · Jan 10, 2015

Hi yes, I keep the wall behind naked, took off any absorbers or diffusers very early on, but I am interested in how to handle asymmetrical walls or Windows/openings for future purchase

audioarcher · Jan 10, 2015

Bruce B said:
I've had 2 sets of di/bipole speakers in my studio. The wall they were placed against was very absorptive and sucked every bit of life out the speakers. So I would advise not to use any kind of heavy drapery behind them.

I agree. I have never had any luck with absorption materials directly behind my speakers. Absorption between them has helped with focus though. Have not tried diffusion between the speakers yet but will at some point.

bonzo75, As far as asymmetrical rooms go they are not ideal for any speaker. If you have one end of the room that is symmetrical then that is were I would put the speakers if possible. If not then you will just have to live with it. You could try corner placement with the speakers the same distance from one corner if the room is big enough.

Jonathan90 · Jan 10, 2015

bonzo75 said:
HI what are these? They look a bit like Analysis Amphitryons but can't see the ribbon, with those small discs being Shun Mook Mpingo discs. Can you please describe your set up?

Pretty basic here - two channel system consists of Maggie’s QR 1.6 mounted on Sound Anchor stands - similar plane to Maggie’s sits the Vandersteen 2Wq - pair of Crown K1's amps in vertical passive control the speakers - the little Jolida 202 integre has been modified to quench the euphonic addiction to an all analog playback via a Thorens TT when mood prevails - associated gear consists of the Parasound duo C/BD 2000/ D/AC / - Magnum Tuner with 60' tower - Nad Pre (multiple controls) couple of dedicated lines - again - nothing really outstanding here - just tried and true real world electronics - big fan of room acoustics - all musical genres are played here to various audiophiles friends and foes alike

Whatmore · Jan 10, 2015

audioarcher said:
I agree. I have never had any luck with absorption materials directly behind my speakers. Absorption between them has helped with focus though. Have not tried diffusion between the speakers yet but will at some point.

bonzo75, As far as asymmetrical rooms go they are not ideal for any speaker. If you have one end of the room that is symmetrical then that is were I would put the speakers if possible. If not then you will just have to live with it. You could try corner placement with the speakers the same distance from one corner if the room is big enough.

Interestingly Roger Sanders recommends asymmetric speaker placement. If you see any of his show setups his speakers are always straddling the corner rather than symmetrical.
I think his rationale is that it produces fewer a more even bass response.

I have found my speakers (Sanders electrostats) sound *much* better when I follow this advice

audioarcher · Jan 10, 2015

Whatmore said:
Interestingly Roger Sanders recommends asymmetric speaker placement. If you see any of his show setups his speakers are always straddling the corner rather than symmetrical.
I think his rationale is that it produces fewer a more even bass response.

I have found my speakers (Sanders electrostats) sound *much* better when I follow this advice

I have heard his rooms at RMAF. In a room that small it may be better overall to do that but it effects the soundstage negatively. I have tried that placement and the soundstage became confused, and less clear. My priority is soundstage over low bass flatness. In my room the bass response is not a problem for me. You have to pick your own compromises.

JonFo · Jan 11, 2015

^^^ Roger's advice is not to be asymmetric IIRC, but to straddle the corner (symmetrically) and use the non-parallel wall angles to advantage. Having non-symmetrical setups means the sound will be skewed.

His steups always sound good to me when I've heard them at trade shows, so the change in reflection paths his configurations gives his speakers works. But I prefer (and measurements support) that absorption is an even better solution. Being a dipole is a bug, not a feature in my view, and I've owned ESLs for 21+ years.

audioarcher · Jan 11, 2015

JonFo said:
^^^ Roger's advice is not to be asymmetric IIRC, but to straddle the corner (symmetrically) and use the non-parallel wall angles to advantage. Having non-symmetrical setups means the sound will be skewed.

That is fine, but in order to have the speakers far enough from the front walls (or corner in this case) and my head far enough from the back walls for my taste I would need an enormous room. At my audio club we moved to a very challenging room recently. The room is very large and has lots of echo. We got the best sound in this room so far by locating the speakers symmetrically in a corner, but the soundstage sounds pinched and not very wide. It kind of sounds v shaped. It does sound a lot clearer though.

audioarcher · Jan 11, 2015

JonFo said:
His steups always sound good to me when I've heard them at trade shows, so the change in reflection paths his configurations gives his speakers works. But I prefer (and measurements support) that absorption is an even better solution. Being a dipole is a bug, not a feature in my view, and I've owned ESLs for 21+ years.

Sure but his room could sound great if he used a larger room and avoided corner placement IMO. I'm sure the larger rooms are cost prohibitive and Roger has to deal with what he has. I have had my Kaya's in a smaller room 14.5 x 13 with two open door ways and they sounded good in it, but not as good as they can sound with more room to breath. I've had these speakers going on 7 years in 3 different rooms, and have tried just about every placement option.

Big Dog RJ · Jan 12, 2015

In my experience, the best place to start is by going through the owner's manual first!

Since we are all "audiophiles" we think we are the experts and that we've actually built the stuff ourselves... Actually not! By reading the manual and following some basic set up placement procedures, the rest falls into place. Too heavily damped will kill the dynamics, too heavily toed-in will kill the soundstage, too far away from the wall kills the bass, after all this setting up and fussing over, too much of scotch kills the moment and puts me to sleep... I'm going to hit the sack. All the best with your placements,
Cheers! RJ

I would just call up the manufacturer or designer and ask them, they'll know better mate, trust me!
Cheers again.

Big Dog RJ · Jan 12, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Hi Big Dog, would the sound be ok when the door was closed?

Sorry Bonzo, I completely missed your message.
Yes! the sound was all fit and dandy when the door was closed. However, like I said it was a HUGE pain in the biggest butt whenever someone entered, and that happened often...
Here in Melbourne, hardly anyone disturbs us unless we invite them over. Back at home town anyone would just walk in, and I mean not just "one" person but a whole dam village... ha!
And they wouldn't leave until lunch and dinner was served!

Cheers mate, hope all goes well with your setup. RJ

bonzo75 · Jan 12, 2015

Well, that's good to know, it means a normal door can do what a thick wall does, I guess.

Big Dog RJ · Jan 13, 2015

Yes, that would be correct as long as the door is kept closed...

Another thing I have learned is to have a good amount of space behind your listening positioning, if possible, and this was also emphasized by some of the panel designers whom I had direct contact with, such as Magnepan, Quad and Martin Logan. I have never had my head too close against a wall or curtain for that matter. In a really tight space, then perhaps a smaller panel would do perfectly, simple as that.

The rooms I have had, been fortunate enough to have ample space behind my listening seat, and adequate space from the front wall as well. As other's have mentioned on the forum, panels do require a good amount of space all round to breathe and open up, if your room size is too small, then a smaller panel will definitely do the trick, and this is the great thing about panels the right size can do just the right magic!

Hence, my main focus on getting hold of the Omicron's because it will fit just dandy in my present room. The Quads (2905's) are way too big... they can open out even more comparatively but the room doesn't allow it. The Omicron's will just take off, I can already feel it...

Cheers Bonzo, and do let us know how it all goes,
RJ

bonzo75 · Jan 13, 2015

I will have enough room for panels, just that I might not have symmetrical walls, hence the thread. Or i have to wait till I get one. Man the things this hobby gets you to do, we are slaves to it, really, deciding how to purchase real estate based on how we can position a future speaker

Big Dog RJ · Jan 13, 2015

Oh yes mate, that's the one!
It's all good stuff. Just remember don't forget your Mrs... or significant other. Just a simple diamond ring from Tiffany's will do it!
(you've got to keep up the standards, since they can very easily call up our dealer mates and inquire on pricing!) Yikes!

There are un-believable things we do for our systems, hey someone should start a thread on that.
Cheers, RJ

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