How important is constant voltage

bonzo75

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How important is it to have constant fixed voltage flowing to your components? My wall voltage fluctuates, though gradually, not big swongs, buty can move between 235 - 250 over the day.

Does a pure line conditioner work, or do I need a balanced power that provides constant voltage?

Also, if I want to buy products from Europe which are designed to take in 230v, will having voltage from the wall (whether through a BPT or a line conditioner) age the product quicker?
 

DonH50

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Depends on the components' power supplies. Most low-level components include well-regulated supplies and will reject line variations. The exceptions I have seen in the past are tube preamps, but most of the ones I have seen in the past decade-plus do regulate the B+ rail. Power amps generally do not regulate the output stages and so the maximum power output will vary with line voltage. The driver stages are generally regulated and feedback will control other parameters so generally IME the only significant change with line voltage is amplifier power output.

I have seen different manufacturers define "conditioner" differently. Most seem to be filter devices that do not regulate the line voltage. Resonant transformer circuits and active (e.g. UPS-based) line devices will regulate the voltage. Balanced power is a different thing independent of regulation.

I don't understand the last question.

FWIWFM etc. - Don
 

ack

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Power amps generally do not regulate the output stages and so the maximum power output will vary with line voltage.

This is a very important point, thanks! Can you name a few amplifiers that do regulate the output stages? One of the things that drew me to Spectral years ago was the individual regulation of each one of the output devices (with dedicated power supplies, in fact); and by looking at the Pass schematics of his DIY amplifiers, he seems to be regulating his output stages as well - can you confirm?

Agreed on everything else you said as well.
 

bonzo75

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By the last question, I meant, if a 230v transformer is being fed a roughly 245v from the wall, will it degrade quicker?
 

microstrip

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The answer will depend a lot on the safety margin of the manufacturer when choosing the voltage and power ratings of the components he is using.

Although most of them are very careful, a few use their components in borderline conditions. A few critical areas - semiconductors used in tube equipment power supply regulation, capacitor voltages and power dissipation in the serial pass element of regulated supplies.

Some power transformers can saturate at higher mains voltages due to the flux increase, rising their temperature and become mechanically noisy. This happens more frequently with equipment that was primarily designed for 60 Hz operation.
 

microstrip

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This is a very important point, thanks! Can you name a few amplifiers that do regulate the output stages? One of the things that drew me to Spectral years ago was the individual regulation of each one of the output devices (with dedicated power supplies, in fact); and by looking at the Pass schematics of his DIY amplifiers, he seems to be regulating his output stages as well - can you confirm?

Agreed on everything else you said as well.

Krell used regulation in a few designs, Naim is also known for this practice. As far as I remember Pass uses current sources in the output of his DIY designs, not voltage regulators. But I have not seen them all!
 

bonzo75

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I am asking from viewpoint of using EU made dacs, pre and power amps in London
 

treitz3

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Line fluctuations should not sway that much. There is an acceptable tolerance but the scenario you are describing is not within the acceptable threshold. I would call the power company and have them fix the issue. We learned this the hard way at an audio event when we kept blowing tube after tube, then some power supplies started having issues. A couple of calls to the power company later, they found the issue at a substation miles away. It was a bad transformer. No issues at that same location ever since.

Tom
 

bonzo75

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That is standard London fluctuation, and is within the ten percent limit. So I understand apparently transformers designed in London should be fine, but those designed in EU might fall below or at the limit
 

Barry2013

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That is standard London fluctuation, and is within the ten percent limit. So I understand apparently transformers designed in London should be fine, but those designed in EU might fall below or at the limit
Hi bonzo.
I am surprised by the level of mains voltage fluctuation you report in London.
In Essex where I am I have an Audience Aspect AR8 passive power conditioner (you may remember it from your visit) plugged into the wall and which has a voltage readout. I can't recall it falling below 232v, is usually 235v or more, late at night usually 237/238v and occasionally 240, I can never recall it exceeding 240v.
Perhaps you should make further enquiries and it would be interesting to hear of the experience of other London members.
 

DonH50

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Thanks for the kind words from those who commented.

I have not looked at a lot of amplifier schematics, hardly any recently (a lot of manufacturers included them but few do now), so do not know which amplifiers might have regulated output rails. You can add Sanders to the list, however. In general regulating the output rails is a mixed blessing. Output is more stabilized, but at a cost in components, heat, and max output headroom. I have had amps with and without and am not sure I would say it really mattered in the end, assuming a decent power supply design (sometimes a flawed assumption). Remember IME the main difference is reduced max output, something you are far more likely to measure on the bench than hear in the real world.

Some AVRs, pro amps, and other components use switching power supplies and those are essentially regulated by design.

Anytime you over-stress a component you are shortening its life, whether voltage too high, too much current, too hot (or even too cold), etc. Like micrstrip said in his excllent summary, it depends upon the design margin. That said, it would be a pretty poor design that had less than 10 % margin, so I would expect it to work OK. Transformer insulation breakdown ratings are usually much higher; active devices may have lower margin if you go the active (e.g. UPS) route but again I would expect at least 20 %. However, I am not a UPS designer by any stretch of the imagination.

Most problems I have seen with transformers (power or output) are due to over-current (e.g. during loud passages). When the core saturates it wreaks havoc on the output. In my world we try to keep the peak current through an inductor (transformer or choke/filter bead) below 1/4 to 1/2 its max current rating.
 

bonzo75

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Hi Barry, I checked with a dealer he confirmed he sees upto 255 in London. Some don't think that with a transformer designed to take in 240 this is a problem, but 230 transformer should be. So I should only buy used if manufacturer is willing to replace

Hi bonzo.
I am surprised by the level of mains voltage fluctuation you report in London.
In Essex where I am I have an Audience Aspect AR8 passive power conditioner (you may remember it from your visit) plugged into the wall and which has a voltage readout. I can't recall it falling below 232v, is usually 235v or more, late at night usually 237/238v and occasionally 240, I can never recall it exceeding 240v.
Perhaps you should make further enquiries and it would be interesting to hear of the experience of other London members.
 

Barry2013

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Hi Barry, I checked with a dealer he confirmed he sees upto 255 in London. Some don't think that with a transformer designed to take in 240 this is a problem, but 230 transformer should be. So I should only buy used if manufacturer is willing to replace

Thanks bonzo.
You live and learn!
I wonder if that is confined to London or occurs elsewhere?
 

bonzo75

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Thanks bonzo.
You live and learn!
I wonder if that is confined to London or occurs elsewhere?

Spirit had a lot of voltage problems. Got to check with LL21. A guy living down the road from me is fine though.
 

ack

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Isn't the voltage in the UK now 230V nominal +10%/-6% to match across the rest of Europe? At least that's what I've been reading...
 

Barry2013

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Spirit had a lot of voltage problems. Got to check with LL21. A guy living down the road from me is fine though.

Yes I was aware of that but had put it down to the building in which his apartment is situated. Maybe the problem is more building specific as the other guy's experience would also suggest.Be interesting to hear Lloyd's experience.
 

bonzo75

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Isn't the voltage in the UK now 230V nominal +10%/-6% to match across the rest of Europe? At least that's what I've been reading...

Yes but that means it is permitted to fluctuate between 216.2v and 253v. So theory is 230, practically 240. Some say EU is actually at 220, though theoretically it should be at 230.
 

microstrip

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Yes but that means it is permitted to fluctuate between 216.2v and 253v. So theory is 230, practically 240. Some say EU is actually at 220, though theoretically it should be at 230.

As far as I know EU is not actually 220V. As the power consumption of many electrical equipments increases with mains voltage, and electrical companies bill us on power they do not want to lower our monthly power invoice ...

Unfortunately there are no exact and infallible rule to rely on your case - although most equipment will not have any problems, you will have to decide for each equipment you consider.

I remember I Jadis JA200 user who had the opposite problem - the local mains was too low and he had to buy two ExactPower conditioners to raise the voltage to 235V - the optimum value for his amplifiers. He was complaining that most of the time his amplifiers sounded anemic, although sometimes on weekends they sounded much better. As the power tube filaments are connected directly to a separate winding, I suggested he should measure the voltage and it was around 5.9Vac. As soon as he started using the power conditioners it rose to the correct 6.3V ac.
 

bonzo75

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As far as I know EU is not actually 220V. As the power consumption of many electrical equipments increases with mains voltage, and electrical companies bill us on power they do not want to lower our monthly power invoice ...

Unfortunately there are no exact and infallible rule to rely on your case - although most equipment will not have any problems, you will have to decide for each equipment you consider.

I remember I Jadis JA200 user who had the opposite problem - the local mains was too low and he had to buy two ExactPower conditioners to raise the voltage to 235V - the optimum value for his amplifiers. He was complaining that most of the time his amplifiers sounded anemic, although sometimes on weekends they sounded much better. As the power tube filaments are connected directly to a separate winding, I suggested he should measure the voltage and it was around 5.9Vac. As soon as he started using the power conditioners it rose to the correct 6.3V ac.

Can adding step down transformers lower sonic quality? Also, can I get a BPT to give out 240 constant, and then add a line conditioner?
 

treitz3

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That is standard London fluctuation, and is within the ten percent limit.
Wow, did not know that. Guess you learn something everyday. That would drive me nuts.

Tom
 

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