What are your thoughts on anti-skating?

f1eng

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2014
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TBH, as an old turntable engineer I have been absolutely astonished by this thread. I suppose it proves the addage "the only thing we learn from experience is that people don't learn from experience".

There is sound information in the thread but some real inaccurate dross too. Here is a little summary of 40+ year old engineering data.

Firstly all off set arms will generate an inward torque due to stylus drag.
This will lead to more force on one groove wall than the other.
The magnitude of this force will vary with the following:
Groove modulation.
RPM (45 more than 33)
Stylus profile.
Vertical tracking force.
Arm geometry.

This force is not constant, both from arm design to design, different stylus profiles and over the surface of the record, varying from outer to inner section of the spiral groove (how many grooves are there on a record? 2) and with the loudness of the music.

This means that the setting is always a compromise, unless a tangential arm is used, and most of them have other different shortcomings.

Conventionally, at least when I was working on record player design in the 1970s, anti skate was considered to be best set for the maximum modulation. The logic behind this is that, whilst the skate torque is always there and varying, the only time it will actually result in mistracking and resultant groove damage is on the most heavily modulated passages. This setting was commonly used. It does have the effect of being greater than optimum on light modulation, but overall, since the skate torque is varying all the time, a pivoted arm with offset can never have complete and perfect compensation. Using this upper figure is logically the best compromise since it is perfect in the condition where groove damage is a risk, and is still better than nothing all the rest of the time.

The normal way to set this is with a heavily modulated test record and an oscilloscope. A groove free section of disc is useless for this for at least 2 reasons, firstly the bit of the stylus in contact is not that which touches the groove, so the drag force will be wrong, secondly no modulation so, again, the stylus drag is wrong. I thought this method had been discredited for these reasons since the 1970s btw.
If one is not concerned by groove damage, but more so about the sensing parts of the cartridge being in the most linear part of the magnetic circuit, then a reduced anti-skating force could be used.
No anti-skate has no virtues whatsoever, apart from making the arm much cheaper to design and make.

There are DJ decks with straight arms which require no anti skate, but they run huge offset angle errors.

Basically this is just one of the many compromised one has to balance in a record playing system! There is no record player solution which is "no-compromise" and never can be :)
 
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ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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OK but how would you then characterize Weisfeld's position that anti-skating doesn't matter, and the fact he provided a device only because of utter pressure from consumers?
 

f1eng

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Jul 24, 2014
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OK but how would you then characterize Weisfeld's position that anti-skating doesn't matter, and the fact he provided a device only because of utter pressure from consumers?

Which Weisfeld? The VPI guy?

One could certainly argue that at moderate modulation levels it makes no difference, so in that sense it doesn't matter, but the magnetic circuit of a pickup cartridge is very non-linear so it may well help to keep it near the middle. Maybe mistracking at high modulation isn't important. I have a lot of LPs which give the lie to that one.
Anyway, bias is just one of the many ways in which mechanical interactions of its constituent parts influence the sound of a record player. I am sure there are some which are more important and some less, and the relative importance will vary from one TT concept to another.

It may not be an important difference compared to others, but it is a known physical effect which is definable and its effect measurable.
Which is more than can be said for a lot of things said about record players :)

Tune to taste.
 
Last edited:

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Is there a way to set it w/o relying on an oscilloscope? You can probably guess how many audiophiles have one. In other words, what would you be listening for when adjusting anti-skating?
 

f1eng

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2014
128
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Oxfordshire
If you don't have an oscilloscope and (undamaged) heavy modulation test disc you may as well use the maker's recommendation. You will hear the harshness of single channel mistracking but maybe not just as it initiates, so your ears may lead you to think it is OK when it isn'y quite...
Perhaps the reason it is often overlooked is the difficulty of optimising it???? The other arm setup parameters are much easier to get right using simple templates.
 

BobM

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Feb 5, 2014
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I read something about the following method a long time ago and it has always worked for me. The proper way to set anti-skate is by ear.

Start out way low on the anti skate, after you have the cartridge alignment and VTA and tracking force dialed in. This is the last step. Listen to the dynamics of a piece od music you know well, use something that has some continual dynamic, like an uptempo drum and cymbal, as well as voice; specially the right channel. Then slowly raise the anti-skate a bit at a time and reassess. Go slowly and only move a little bit at a time. You should hear the dynamics in the right channel come up slowly as the anti-skate increases, then eventually both channels will begin to improve. Keep going a wee bit at a time and you will hear the dynamics and quality fall off pretty suddenly. Back it up a bit until they come back and ... there you go.
 

Analog Kid

New Member
Sep 17, 2014
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Anyone who says that AS makes no difference or that pivoted arms are better without ASr:

Used a very flawed AS system, or

Has a very flawed audio system, or

Can't hear, or

Did not use good methodology in the tests, or

Never examined a stylus that was used for several hundred hours under high magnification, or

Never carefully listened to a record that has been played hundreds of times without AS, or

Makes it up as he goes along.
 

theophile

Well-Known Member
Anyone who says that AS makes no difference or that pivoted arms are better without ASr:

Used a very flawed AS system, or

Has a very flawed audio system, or

Can't hear, or

Did not use good methodology in the tests, or

Never examined a stylus that was used for several hundred hours under high magnification, or

Never carefully listened to a record that has been played hundreds of times without AS, or

Makes it up as he goes along.
All of the above?
 

BruceD

VIP/Donor
Dec 13, 2013
1,509
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Anyone who says that AS makes no difference or that pivoted arms are better without ASr:

Used a very flawed AS system, or

Has a very flawed audio system, or

Can't hear, or

Did not use good methodology in the tests, or

Never examined a stylus that was used for several hundred hours under high magnification, or

Never carefully listened to a record that has been played hundreds of times without AS, or

Makes it up as he goes along.


Hmmm-- So Shindo got it so wrong after all these years--how could he miss the obvious flaws you mention

Dear me!

BruceD
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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In my opinion, the kid's right.
 

audioarcher

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2012
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Seattle area
Whether or not anti skate is beneficial depends on the design of the arm and the design of the anti skate device.

On a true unipivot an anti skate device will likely cause more harm than good. Because the device itself will likely change azimuth as you play a record. This is not a problem on stabilized unipivots like the Graham Phantom, Durand Telos, Basis Vector because azimuth can not move around in these designs.

Also from what I have read about the Triplanar, many prefer the sound quality with the anti skate device removed. This is likely a problem with the design though. On my Reed tonearm the anti skate device does not effect the sound quality and is beneficial in helping with tracking.
 

Analog Kid

New Member
Sep 17, 2014
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Whether or not anti skate is beneficial depends on the design of the arm and the design of the anti skate device.

On a true unipivot an anti skate device will likely cause more harm than good. Because the device itself will likely change azimuth as you play a record. This is not a problem on stabilized unipivots like the Graham Phantom, Durand Telos, Basis Vector because azimuth can not move around in these designs.

Also from what I have read about the Triplanar, many prefer the sound quality with the anti skate device removed. This is likely a problem with the design though. On my Reed tonearm the anti skate device does not effect the sound quality and is beneficial in helping with tracking.

If a design cannot use anti-skate or if it sounds worse with anti-skate then the original design or the anti-skate system deign, or both, are fundamentally flawed.
 

audioarcher

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2012
1,396
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970
Seattle area
If a design cannot use anti-skate or if it sounds worse with anti-skate then the original design or the anti-skate system deign, or both, are fundamentally flawed.

No argument here. Just trying to explain why so many argue against anti skate.
 

Chuck Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2015
84
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238
I have friends who have Rega TT and arms.
In fact one friend bought my P9 combo.

They are both in the anti AS camp,and yet I've not found anything to complain about when I listen to their systems.
No serious distortions in the left or right channels.

I now have an SME TT and V arm and I can easily hear distortions if I don't come close to matching my AS to my tracking force.

I have used a test set up lp recorded at McGill U. that uses percussion instruments played back in increasing volume levels.

As the volume level is increased and you notice more distortion in one channel than the other, then you either increase or decrease the anti skate until the distortion is either gone or is the same in both channels.

So for my friends with the Regas, AS doesn't seem to be an issue,but in my setup it is.

Reading about the ET2 brings back fond memories of it sitting on my Oracle Delphi mk2 table with Dynavector karat cart.

Back in the day I was very pleased and proud of that combo.
 

audioarcher

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2012
1,396
51
970
Seattle area
I have friends who have Rega TT and arms.
In fact one friend bought my P9 combo.

They are both in the anti AS camp,and yet I've not found anything to complain about when I listen to their systems.
No serious distortions in the left or right channels.

I now have an SME TT and V arm and I can easily hear distortions if I don't come close to matching my AS to my tracking force.

I have used a test set up lp recorded at McGill U. that uses percussion instruments played back in increasing volume levels.

As the volume level is increased and you notice more distortion in one channel than the other, then you either increase or decrease the anti skate until the distortion is either gone or is the same in both channels.

So for my friends with the Regas, AS doesn't seem to be an issue,but in my setup it is.

Reading about the ET2 brings back fond memories of it sitting on my Oracle Delphi mk2 table with Dynavector karat cart.

Back in the day I was very pleased and proud of that combo.

Hi Chuck, The Rega arms tend to still have some antiskate force even when turned all the way down. At least mine did. Maybe that would explain it?
 

Don C

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2013
208
35
333
USA
Simple solution: Try anti-skate Vs. no anti-skate! That is the only way to know!

I use no anti - skate, and no arm cable to junction box cable twist.

My turntable

VPI JMW-10 Arm
VPI TNT MK III table
VPI SDS
Cardas Golden Cross RCA to Pass Labs Xono - set to 100 ohms loading
ZYX Airy 3 - Silver coils on Arm 1
ZYX Airy 3 - Copper coils on Arm 2
TBD - Arm 3
VPI TNT Stand - filled with lead shot
VPI Maple Top Plate - 3" thick
VPI lift off dust cover - off when playing Lps
 

Don C

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2013
208
35
333
USA
Simple solution: Try anti-skate Vs. no anti-skate! That is the only way to know!

I use no anti - skate, and no arm cable to junction box cable twist.

My turntable

VPI JMW-10 Arm
VPI TNT MK III table
VPI SDS
Cardas Golden Cross RCA to Pass Labs Xono - set to 100 ohms loading
ZYX Airy 3 - Silver coils on Arm 1
ZYX Airy 3 - Copper coils on Arm 2
TBD - Arm 3
VPI TNT Stand - filled with lead shot
VPI Maple Top Plate - 3" thick
VPI lift off dust cover - off when playing Lps
 

perart1

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2012
118
42
935
Cheltenham
Anti skate

Been reading some interesting posts around the net and it feels like no anti-skating is preferred. What are the pros and cons? Which way have you gone and why? I am leaning towards no anti-skating, but I am really undecided yet.

Peter

PS: Look at this poor stylus - the result of too much anti-skating

We could all forget about what we think we know about anti skate, offsett, geometry and try a ViV rigid float
 

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