Yes I have. That is the best tracking force for this particular Onyx,using a variety of test records.Any higher than this does not make a difference to tracking ability. I could show you what a lower tracking force does but I am afraid my heart won't stand it! I could demonstrate the same thing with an almost brand new EMT in a 12 inch EMT arm.
What are your thoughts on anti-skating?
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Yes I have. That is the best tracking force for this particular Onyx,using a variety of test records.Any higher than this does not make a difference to tracking ability. I could show you what a lower tracking force does but I am afraid my heart won't stand it! I could demonstrate the same thing with an almost brand new EMT in a 12 inch EMT arm.
Anti skating reduces dynamics in my experience- so i take as less as it can- i m interested therefore in the VIV or Thales tonearm
Very nice pictures - I love these old TEK scopes. What were the exact setting of tracking force and anti skating correction in the SME V arm? The older Koetsu Onyx's were know to be very bad trackers. I never managed them to get a decent tracking at the typical high modulation of finale of many symphonies at the inner groove, but have had no experience with modern Koetsu's.
Some cartridge manufacturers suggest that the anti skating setting should only be a fraction of the value suggested by the arm scale, as they feel arm manufacturers usually overcompensate anti skating.
My personal experiences and experiments in that area... are that one is better off getting the VTF as low as possible, with anti-skaing then providing balance in distortion, and then slowly decreasing the VTF, a hair more, to make sure the Anti-skaing is in the correct area..by ascertaining that the distortion is even...... then increasing VTF to where it should be.... and then Anti-skating increased a fraction of the increase in VTF. Without the tools to analyze, just the ear, this sort of thing tends to work very well. Then listen for change....distortion in a channel or whatnot, for the next bit of record listening.
All assuming of course that one has been fanatical in making sure that things are 'on the level'.
(I tried to find an image of an old item that 'Freud tools' used to sell. It was a premium build small level, with the word 'FREUD' written on it, which was very fitting for audiophiles)
I have a completely different set of criteria when setting AS ...
I set anti-skate so that the cantilever/stylus/coils are not offset; that they remain in there optimum position.
Easily the best, and easiest, sonic method to my ears.
BTW: setting up AS with a blank LP has often PROVEN to be misleading; and can (usually does) negatively change the more IMPORTANT criteria I noted above.
tb1
I set anti-skate so that the cantilever/stylus/coils are not offset; that they remain in there optimum position.
Easily the best, and easiest, sonic method to my ears.
BTW: setting up AS with a blank LP has often PROVEN to be misleading; and can (usually does) negatively change the more IMPORTANT criteria I noted above.
tb1
What about using the test tracks on side one of the Hi Fi News test record to set AS? Is there a down side to using this method (adding force until the tracks, at least 6, 7, and 8 play without breakup in one channel)?
Many people will tell you that these test tracks do not reflect a typical groove in a music LP and that the optimum settings to track these extreme tracks are not the optimum for music. I own this LP and use these tracks mainly for checking performance, not for adjustment.
Since I have taken in a pivot arm (Rega RB300) after using a linear air bearing arms for 20+ years, I am now inclined to learn about anti skate and the pivot arm. A friend of mine who has had experiences with the Rega arm told me that the arm will never be deadlock at all points of the record unlike other arms he has used. He demonstrated it to me by putting on a laser disc on the platter, signifying a blank or grooveless record, and showed me that the arm can be deadlocked only at the middle area of the disc, probably where cuts 2 and 3 are located. By increasing or decreasing the anti skate force, one can only choose what area (first, middle or last) of the record be set to deadlock. The lesser the anti skate force, say .7 out of 2, the stylus/arm scoots real fast inward and stops at the middle part of the record while moving it up to 1 out of 2 slows it down a bit and it stops before the middle part of the record. And by increasing the AS force, I notice at the last track area, the stylus/arm begins to move outward, toward the arm rest. Interesting to me. Now I really don't know what it means when a grooved record is placed. Will it skew the cantilever with its swift inward skating motion at a lesser AS force setting? My friend told me he does not think so. Now, my worry is mostly psychological, I think.
Using the method you described above isn't ideal in my books, because factors such as groove modulation, stylus cut & drag, are not taken into account. And not only that, over the years I've witnessed this method, the same stylus/carts can act unpredictably depending on the LP used, some shoot in, others out. I've even had certain carts that - by virtue of using this method - required full AS to be applied, yet they still wanted to shoot in at an alarming rate. If AS is max'd out, based on the above method - which I've witnessed - it has always offset the cartridge during play, visually and sonically.
Again, any skewing / miss-alignment of the cantilever in relation to groove is THEE primary concern. Cartridges setups using a flat disk tend to dismiss that requirement outright. Rega's, in particular, with magnetic bias, tend to offset certain stylus/cants with even moderate AS applied. Actually, this is the biggest mistake I see with Rega setups, too much AS is applied and therefore ... a skewed cart.
When I setup a cartridge on a Rega, that sliding AS knob becomes a bit of a God send ... because it a rather easy to adjust on the fly ... so I visually align the AS/stylus/cantilever/groove while playing.
tb1
Anti-skate force is certainly a complex subject though it might seem rather simple. I haven't yet found a scientific paper which can be considered conclusive. Most of the tests conducted to evaluate and measure the skating or drag force are indirect methods - the method itself affects the phenomena in an unknown/uncontrolled fashion and therefore the measurements are flawed.
What it is completely clear to me is the fact that in EVERY pivoted arm this phenomena occurs. If one cares about fidelity and about the stylus and suspension of the cartridge, then skating compensation should be applied. The actual value and how the determine it is still an opened subject for me, but at least a compromise value should be used rather than saying that anti-skating is not needed. Experience demonstrates that one can successfully play with a pivoted arm and no anti-skating, but this doesn't change the fact that the stylus and suspension are being loaded more from one side than from the other. The stylus wears out unevenly and the suspension yields and is not centred while playing the record.
My choice is to have a constant and reproducible torque in the vertical axis of the arm to compensate the skating torque created by the friction of the stylus on the groove.
What it is completely clear to me is the fact that in EVERY pivoted arm this phenomena occurs. If one cares about fidelity and about the stylus and suspension of the cartridge, then skating compensation should be applied. The actual value and how the determine it is still an opened subject for me, but at least a compromise value should be used rather than saying that anti-skating is not needed. Experience demonstrates that one can successfully play with a pivoted arm and no anti-skating, but this doesn't change the fact that the stylus and suspension are being loaded more from one side than from the other. The stylus wears out unevenly and the suspension yields and is not centred while playing the record.
My choice is to have a constant and reproducible torque in the vertical axis of the arm to compensate the skating torque created by the friction of the stylus on the groove.
I recently reset the azimuth on my Wilson Benesch unipivot arm. I noticed I got a different reading with and without anti skating. Now I am wondering if I change my anti skating force I should be changing/rechecking my azimuth?
I was also wondering, does change in playing speeds change forces on the arm? Would a 45 RPM need more anti skating?
I was also wondering, does change in playing speeds change forces on the arm? Would a 45 RPM need more anti skating?
Bruce,
I don't use dental floss or pellets in the arm so cannot tell you how well they work… Nevertheless, the constant torque approach and the implementation I use certainly provides a CONSTANT torque which can be very accurately adjusted and compensates for the skating torque satisfactory.
Actually, I know of a better alternative but it is more complex and costly and the benefits are marginal, therefore I do not use it.
/Marc
Actually I have read (somewhere), and used the relative dynamics method. Find a recoring with good dynamics and voice. Put the anti-skate all the way down and listen to the relative dynamic in the right channel vs the left. The right should be dull in comparison. Now bring the anti-skate up slowly. You shold hear the right channel dynamic and soundstaging come slowly up to snuff with the left. Keep raising the anti-skate and you should now hear both becoming more dynamic. Go slowly now and keep raising the anti-skate. It should get better and better but then very quickly drop off in both channels. This should be pretty noticeable. Now back off the anti-skate just a bit and you have found the sweet spot.
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