What are your thoughts on anti-skating?

ack

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Been reading some interesting posts around the net and it feels like no anti-skating is preferred. What are the pros and cons? Which way have you gone and why? I am leaning towards no anti-skating, but I am really undecided yet.

Peter

PS: Look at this poor stylus - the result of too much anti-skating
 

vinylphilemag

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With a pivoted arm, I'd say that correct anti-skating (or as well called it in the UK, bias) is essential. With a parallel tracking arm, it is of course not needed.
 

jadis

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Apr 28, 2010
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I heard too they say with linear tracking tone arms, AS is not needed. Well, strictly speaking, one needs to set the linear arm with a blank groove LP so that the stylus in the arm does not skid towards or away from the spindle area. That is done by adjusting the level of the 2 front feet and 2 back feet of the TT, and the screwable feet of the VPI is perfect for this. To me, that's is the anti-skating setting. If I were to use a pivoted tone arm, I would still use the blank groove record and adjust the anti-skating knob or weight so that a blank cut on an LP would neither slide forward or backward, which is what they mean by 'dead-lock' setting. To me, anti skate in a linear or pivot arm is just that, a dead-lock position, and I believe it prevents a long term 'skewing' or slight curving of the cantilever.
 

JackD201

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I use unipivot arms and most of my carts have long cantilevers. I find that anti-skate affects azimuth.
 

Mike Lavigne

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i have 3 pivoted arms and 1 linear tracker.

i do use a bit of anti-skate on my pivoted arms (2 Reeds and a Talea). the Talea is a unipivot and antiskate seems to stabilize the arm somewhat.

i did own a Triplaner and at one point was using it without any antiskate and it did sound better; more detailed and more clear. this was after a particuarly 'set-up talented' friend spent a few different sessions tweaking it and at the end, when everything was dialed in all the way, removing the antiskate improved it.

obviously; my Rockport linear tracker has no antiskate issues.

overall; my perspective is that mostly antiskate is a part of arm dynamics and is useful for optimal performance; but there are exceptions.
 

karma

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HI All,
There is really no question about it. Anti-skating is bad. Why? Because it is a complete result of the geometrical errors built into every pivoted tone arm. Without those errors, no antiskating is needed because no skating force is created.

Further, skating force is not constant. It is created as a result of the head offset angle AND groove friction which is a function of groove modulation. Since groove modulation is constantly changing, often very quickly, so is skating force. There is no single anti-skating force value that is valid for more than a very short period of time. The best you can do is come to an average value which is rarely correct. I am certain that the quickly changing skating force causes a type of modulation for which we have no name (maybe "Skating Modulation"?) that is related to the horizontal mass of the tone arm. This is bad.

The best solution to this insolvable problem is to eliminate skating force altogether. This can only be done with a linear tracking arm which have none of the geometrical errors that cause skating force. An air bearing arm is the best solution within the linear tracking family.

So, dump your pivoted arm. Problem solved.

Sparky
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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HI All,
There is really no question about it. Anti-skating is bad. Why? Because it is a complete result of the geometrical errors built into every pivoted tone arm. Without those errors, no antiskating is needed because no skating force is created.

Further, skating force is not constant. It is created as a result of the head offset angle AND groove friction which is a function of groove modulation. Since groove modulation is constantly changing, often very quickly, so is skating force. There is no single anti-skating force value that is valid for more than a very short period of time. The best you can do is come to an average value which is rarely correct. I am certain that the quickly changing skating force causes a type of modulation for which we have no name (maybe "Skating Modulation"?) that is related to the horizontal mass of the tone arm. This is bad.

The best solution to this insolvable problem is to eliminate skating force altogether. This can only be done with a linear tracking arm which have none of the geometrical errors that cause skating force. An air bearing arm is the best solution within the linear tracking family.

So, dump your pivoted arm. Problem solved.

Sparky

That's basically Joe Grado's and Mitch Cotter's perspective :)

One other thing: less hardware on the arm may also result in better sound! I know people who have worked with many arms and they found they more parts and pieces they removed, the better the arm sounded :)
 

JackD201

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The only way to eliminate skating force is to stop the platter from spinning :p
 

mullard88

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Jun 5, 2010
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All my tonearms are pivoted and I don't use anti skating unless I come across passages when one channel disappears or when one channel sounds louder. Then I start dialing in anti skate a little at a time and stop once I have the desired balance. In most cases, my anti skate is about half the tracking force.
 

Grainger49

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May 11, 2010
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I believe that there are skating forces in pivoted arms. Therefore I also believe that some anti-skating force should be applied. There are so many arms out there that have it. It is not a myth, the key is in the execution of that anti-skating force.

There have been many schools of thought on this throughout my life in audio. Elliptical and Conical styli are supposed to need different compensation. Probably true due to the different contact patches. That also means line contact are yet a third set of anti-skating parameters that are needed to be adjusted for. When I sold high end audio gear, I call it "the dark days of the birth of high end", there were compensations for elliptical/Conical/Wet groove/Dry groove. Yes sometimes four different scales. So as Karma says above/below, there are many factors that affect skating.

IMHO some anti-skating is appropriate for pivoted arms.

Been reading some interesting posts around the net and it feels like no anti-skating is preferred. What are the pros and cons? Which way have you gone and why? I am leaning towards no anti-skating, but I am really undecided yet.

Peter

Peter,

I can't imagine that cantilever/suspension damage was caused by anti-skate. Knowing what caused this cantilever to be deformed is hard to determine.

The forces applied for anti-skating shouldn't result in an offset cantilever like that; not even if over compensated. I'm just saying I'm a skeptic of anti-skate being the culprit in this case.


I heard too they say with linear tracking tone arms, AS is not needed. Well, strictly speaking, one needs to set the linear arm with a blank groove LP so that the stylus in the arm does not skid towards or away from the spindle area. That is done by adjusting the level of the 2 front feet and 2 back feet of the TT, and the screwable feet of the VPI is perfect for this. To me, that's is the anti-skating setting. If I were to use a pivoted tone arm, I would still use the blank groove record and adjust the anti-skating knob or weight so that a blank cut on an LP would neither slide forward or backward, which is what they mean by 'dead-lock' setting. To me, anti skate in a linear or pivot arm is just that, a dead-lock position, and I believe it prevents a long term 'skewing' or slight curving of the cantilever.

jadis,

Good advice and thanks for the information. One of my arms is a linear tracker (old Souther Tri-Quartz, I'm poor and retired) and I have observed some skating in a blank groove. I did then adjust my VIP feet for zero movement.

I thought I had my table, platter and the arm level but the skating proved the levels I had used (one on the Souther which I now don't trust) were inaccurate. Really good suggestion there!

HI All,

There is really no question about it. Anti-skating is bad. Why? Because it is a complete result of the geometrical errors built into every pivoted tone arm. Without those errors, no antiskating is needed because no skating force is created.

Further, skating force is not constant. It is created as a result of the head offset angle AND groove friction which is a function of groove modulation. Since groove modulation is constantly changing, often very quickly, so is skating force. There is no single anti-skating force value that is valid for more than a very short period of time. The best you can do is come to an average value which is rarely correct. I am certain that the quickly changing skating force causes a type of modulation for which we have no name (maybe "Skating Modulation"?) that is related to the horizontal mass of the tone arm. This is bad.

The best solution to this insolvable problem is to eliminate skating force altogether. This can only be done with a linear tracking arm which have none of the geometrical errors that cause skating force. An air bearing arm is the best solution within the linear tracking family.

So, dump your pivoted arm. Problem solved.

Sparky

Sparky, I don't follow your logic. You admit to the existence of skating forces but don't want to adjust for it at all? I whole heartedly agree that there are a number of factors involved with skating forces at any moment, I don't believe in making no adjustments for it at all. It is kind of "Ok, my car is skidding and there are a lot of factors, I won't make adjustments and skid off the road." I'd rather make some adjustment and try not to end up in a ditch. I think minimizing skating forces for the factors that can be adjusted for makes sense. Groove modulation is not one of those. Good anti-skating force scenarios do adjust as the arm travels across the LP because the skating force changes with the position of the arm on the LP.

All my tonearms are pivoted and I don't use anti skating unless I come across passages when one channel disappears or when one channel sounds louder. Then I start dialing in anti skate a little at a time and stop once I have the desired balance. In most cases, my anti skate is about half the tracking force.

I change absolute phase, if needed, when I play an album, but I can't imaging having to change anti-skate for each album, or each cut on an album. VTA is also something I can't fathom changing for every LP I play. Just my slant on life.
 

karma

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Jun 17, 2011
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HI Granger,
I must have stated my case poorly. I don't have a problem with anti skating in pivoted arms. I believe it is needed. However, because of the dynamic nature of groove friction, thus constantly changing skating force, anti skating can never be more than a poor approximation of cancelling skating force. I never said that anti skating is not needed with pivoted arms. Largely, I ignore pivoted arms because I already have my stable of air bearing arms. Why pay attention to something for which I have little respect?

My big problem is with tone arms that create skating force, namely pivoted arms. These should be taken to the nearest dock and dumped into the sea. Linear tracking arms don't create skating force and, thus, creates the best environment for the cartridge to perform at its best. This is our goal.

I do understand that getting into linear arms is difficult. There are not that many available now in the twilight of vinyl technology. However, it is possible and quite a few cost effective linear air bearing arms have come on the market in the past few years. Of course, the used market is always a possible source for the classic air bearing arms. Many top line used Japanese integrated turntables are available that use servo type linear arms. Don't forget that Eminent Technology is still producing their ET2.5 air bearing arms. Of course, the Goldman arms are available on the used market using an integrated design. Then there are the Souther (now Clearaudio) passive linear arms, which I don't like very much but they have their following.

The point is this. Pivoted arms are inherently flawed in several different ways, not just because they create slating force. To avoid their flaws, a linear design is required. And it remains possible to obtain a top of the line linear arm in several different configurations. They are certainly worth the search, effort, and money. Your cartridge and the resultant sound will thank you. And you will thank the visionaries that created the linear technology for our enjoyment.

Please try to avoid crediting my views with statements that I did not say.

Sparky
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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HI Granger,
I must have stated my case poorly. I don't have a problem with anti skating in pivoted arms. I believe it is needed. However, because of the dynamic nature of groove friction, thus constantly changing skating force, anti skating can never be more than a poor approximation of cancelling skating force. I never said that anti skating is not needed with pivoted arms. Largely, I ignore pivoted arms because I already have my stable of air bearing arms. Why pay attention to something for which I have little respect?

My big problem is with tone arms that create skating force, namely pivoted arms. These should be taken to the nearest dock and dumped into the sea. Linear tracking arms don't create skating force and, thus, creates the best environment for the cartridge to perform at its best. This is our goal.

I do understand that getting into linear arms is difficult. There are not that many available now in the twilight of vinyl technology. However, it is possible and quite a few cost effective linear air bearing arms have come on the market in the past few years. Of course, the used market is always a possible source for the classic air bearing arms. Many top line used Japanese integrated turntables are available that use servo type linear arms. Don't forget that Eminent Technology is still producing their ET2.5 air bearing arms. Of course, the Goldman arms are available on the used market using an integrated design. Then there are the Souther (now Clearaudio) passive linear arms, which I don't like very much but they have their following.

The point is this. Pivoted arms are inherently flawed in several different ways, not just because they create slating force. To avoid their flaws, a linear design is required. And it remains possible to obtain a top of the line linear arm in several different configurations. They are certainly worth the search, effort, and money. Your cartridge and the resultant sound will thank you. And you will thank the visionaries that created the linear technology for our enjoyment.

Please try to avoid crediting my views with statements that I did not say.

Sparky

And linear tracking arms are too, for many reasons. I think the Clearaudio/Souther suffers since the arm is very short and sensitive to warps, etc that change VTF and SRA. Then there are issues with the horizontal vs. vertical mass of the arm such as in the ET. There are also a couple of other linear arms out there such as the Kuzma, etc too. See them around at shows every once in a while :)

The air bearing arms, in part to no matter how tight the bearing, don't have the coupling of a pivoted arm. To my ears, air bearing arms do not have the low frequencies extension and dynamic impact of a top flight pivoted arm. OTOH, the pivoted arms don't have quite the same resolution eg. airiness.

As Roseanne would say: it's always something.
 

Grainger49

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May 11, 2010
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Sparky,

There was no intent to put words in your mouth. I must have misunderstood your post. Reading the text again, you did not say not to use anti-skating for pivoted arms, just to use one of the few SLT arms out there instead. I agreed that there are a number of factors that affect skating forces. I also stated that a number of arms have compensated for more than one of those factors. None could compensate for groove modulation, at least not that I foresee they could.

I agree that SLT arms solve skating problems by eliminating them. I use an old Souther, that you don't like, I don't like the price of the ET arm on my retirement funds. But I say each to his own.

As Myles above mentions all arms have problems of their own, SLT arms included. I have to agree.

Edit: I have it now. Sparky got angry with me on another forum. I use the same moniker wherever I post so folks know it is me.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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HI All,
There is really no question about it. Anti-skating is bad. Why? Because it is a complete result of the geometrical errors built into every pivoted tone arm. Without those errors, no antiskating is needed because no skating force is created.

Further, skating force is not constant. It is created as a result of the head offset angle AND groove friction which is a function of groove modulation. Since groove modulation is constantly changing, often very quickly, so is skating force. There is no single anti-skating force value that is valid for more than a very short period of time. The best you can do is come to an average value which is rarely correct. I am certain that the quickly changing skating force causes a type of modulation for which we have no name (maybe "Skating Modulation"?) that is related to the horizontal mass of the tone arm. This is bad.

The best solution to this insolvable problem is to eliminate skating force altogether. This can only be done with a linear tracking arm which have none of the geometrical errors that cause skating force. An air bearing arm is the best solution within the linear tracking family.

So, dump your pivoted arm. Problem solved.

Sparky

not so fast. i've had SOTA linear tracking. yes, it does allow for a very solid view of the music.

but; it turns out that a unipivot properly exectued does an even better job of image stability, space, and overall performance. the problem is that you cannot isolate anti-skate from azimuth, VTA, VTF, and any other adjustment you might name. the question is which arm can bring you the best possible performance. eliminating anti-skate is only an advantage if the overall performance is also better. it's not.

i agree that many of the adjustments to arms that we make, including anti-skate in a pivoted arm, are dynamically changing with the groove and position on the pressing. so these adjustments can only be a compromise.

i've had what is considered to be the very best linear tracker next to the best pivoted arms and the pivoted arms were better. i sold the linear tracker. to be fair, that linear tracker did better every other arm i had had in my system prior to particular unipivots.

i do agree it is a much more straightforward engineering challenge to solve anti-skate with linear tracking (it does so by definition if it is properly executed) than with a pivoted arm. but so what?
 
Last edited:

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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not so fast. i've had SOTA linear tracking. yes, it does allow for a very solid view of the music.

but; it turns out that a unipivot properly exectued does an even better job of image stability, space, and overall performance. the problem is that you cannot isolate anti-skate from azimuth, VTA, VTF, and any other adjustment you might name. the question is which arm can bring you the best possible performance. eliminating anti-skate is only an advantage if the overall performance is also better. it's not.

i agree that many of the adjustments to arms that we make, including anti-skate in a pivoted arm, are dynamically changing with the groove and position on the pressing. so these adjustments can only be a compromise.

i've had what is considered to be the very best linear tracker next to the best pivoted arms and the pivoted arms were better. i sold the linear tracker. to be fair, that linear tracker did better every other arm i had had in my system prior to particular unipivots.

i do agree it is a much more straightforward engineering challenge to solve anti-skate with linear tracking (it does so by definition if it is properly executed) than with a pivoted arm. but so what?

Are you forgetting the Air Tangent Mike :) Plus for a lucky few, they had remote control SRA/VTA!
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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Familiarity with the tonearm that you use is really the key to setting it up properly. I know that sounds fundamental, but it always takes me months before I really understand a new arm in my system. Everything about tonearms is deceptively simple to me. :D

One way to check antiskate is one that anyone can readily see. Hook a laptop up to your phonostage, and make a wave file of some song, any song. Then, open that file with a program like Sound Forge, Nero or Audacity, so that you can view a graph of the channels of the wave. If the highs on one channel have jagged places on the chart, you need to compensate antiskate. When both channels have no jagged highs, you have set the antiskate as well as possible.

I discovered that by accident while converting some vinyl to digital for my brother-in-law. By the way, that experience almost killed me. I love music, but my brother-in-law has the most horrible taste in music that you can imagine!

Win
 

jdza

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May 3, 2010
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I used to be ambivalent about the whole ant skating thing. However I recently bought an old Howland West test record that includes lateral deflection tones for setting anti skating. It is quite horrifying to watch the left and right waveforms on an oscilloscope . Equally gratifying as one gets to the correct anti skating force to see the horribly distorted sine waves normalising.It is also true that the best setting for the outer edge of the record to not be the best setting for the inner end,so like everything in life,it is a compromise.

As an aside: I found on both my SME V and EMT tonearms that the manufacturers' scale were spot on .
 

Syntax

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Feb 26, 2012
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At The Dark Side
In a pivoted Arm, anti-skating is necessary. Skating forces are created by the offset angle of the Head-shell (making the Arm longer and claiming the reduced offset angle of the Headshell reduces the need for anti-skate is totally misleading).
Length of Arm will not negate the need for proper anti-skate. The difference in offset angle between a 9" Arm and a longer one, for example 10.5", is only a couple of degrees, hardly enough to eliminate the need for proper anti-skateing. The skating force varies across the surface of the record and a proportional compensating force must be applied (except you have very heavy VTF).
Some manufacturers argue that little or no meaningful correction of anti-skate forces is possible in pivoted Arms. That attitude is incorrect and is presented to justify a substandard anti-skate system. They suggest that the anti-skate forces are constantly changing and difficult to control (better doing nothing than anything). While the forces across the record do change (also valid for straight line tracking Arms) it is entirely possible (and necessary) to supply a complementary correction force.
This is necessary and far more logical than little or no correction at all! If one examines the front of the Tonearm during play, a Tonearm with inadequate anti-skating will show that the cantilever is being forced outward towards the edge of the record.
This surely places the magnetic system in a non-linear position.
And in addition, the cantilever will be stressed laterally.
 

jdza

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May 3, 2010
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Hi Fi Sound test record .Determination of bias correction and tracking ability. Test modulation 300Hz lateral +15dB .Inner grooves.

Koetsu Onyx/SME V . Anti skating applied:



Koetsu Onyx/Sme V. No anti skating applied

 

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