Some issues with Myles Astor's recent review of the new VPI Classic DD TT

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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First I want to say that I believe that the turntable is as good as Myles says it is...this is not a criticism of his opinion on the product. I am more complaining about the misrepresenation of older Japanese technology and incorrect statements I found in the review.

As for misrepresentation of DD from the past. He basically states that they had not solved the cogging issues but this was clearly not the case with the last generation DD tables from the likes of Kenwood, Yamaha, Nakamichi etc. Sure the first generation SP10 had this issue but by Mk3 it was largely solved. I think people forget that DD was alive and well in Japan right up until cd killed most of them off (early to mid 1980s).

Also misrepresented was the noise of direct drive TTs. The Kenwood L07D had a noise of -94db and the Yamama GT2000 had a noise of -85db! Both are superior to most if not all belt drive TTs and even come close to cd. Only early ones were noisy...

Ringing platters? Given the massiveness of the platters used in top DD TTs from the day (7kg for the Kenwood and 6kg for the Yamaha and both made of solid metal...like the VPI platter) I don't think this was an issue...at least not more than VPI's new platter that was given as a big upgrade over previous VPI platters.

Speed instability? Again, hunting was a problem in the early ones but by the 2nd or 3rd generation that had been solved too and the speed is ultra stable. I have compared a number of TTs now with my Allnic Speednic and the Yamaha GT2000 is the ONLY one that is absolutely rock stable...even pushing on the platter with your finger or with a record playing...not even a hint of speed instability. I have tried TTs like the SME 20/2, Acoustic Solid, Transrotor (huge 3 motor design) and a couple of lower end DD TTs and the Yamaha creams them all for speed stability.

Vast majority? Japan and Germany (EMT?) made many tens of thousands of DD turntables...most so/so but the better ones are still competitive with top models today.

An incorrect statement was that the Goldmund Reference was a direct drive turntable but in fact it was a belt drive turntable. The Goldmund Studio and Studietto were both direct drive (and good ones too) that can be found used for pretty reasonable money.


Anyway, just wanted to clear some of my thoughts on what Myles put in the review that I found misleading of past technology and one factually incorrect statement.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Agree Morricab, but Myles did say late 60's / early 70's.
I guess Myles neglected to mention by the mid/late 70's all those early issues had. been resolved including the tables you mention.
Harry W did mention the LO7D did have perfect speed stability in the interview after the review.

The high end Japanese tables of this period are still competitive with today's high end tables.

My Pioneer Exclusive P3 turntable is technological tour deforce that arguably has not been matched by current dd tables.

Speed stability is perfect IMO. my P10 also has perfect speed stability.

Ringing platter - certainty not.

I would love to hear my P3 compared to a Classic DD, Brinkman dd or Wave Kinetics as I am sure all of them are wonderful tables. BTW, bravo to these 3 companies in bringing back DD tables.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html


p3.JPG


p3(1).JPG
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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I fixed audio gear in late 1970s and saw plenty of direct drive tables. Reason I remember them is that once their controller went bad, there was no way to fix them. The replacement was too expensive.

My Technics (Panasonic) while a low end linear tracking turntable was also direct drive. I think I bought it in 1982 though.
 

Jhellow

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Jul 12, 2011
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I still use a Goldmund Studio having replaced the chassis and plinth with loaded carbon fiber composites and the springs with three active pneumatic isolation and leveling modules from Newport Corporation, and having replaced the power supply with a TriPoint 24 volt unit. Cogging has never been an audible issue with the Studio. Goldmund understood that problem and used a low torque Pabst motor with a fairly massive platter weighted at its perifery to accomplish that. All of those mods and the cost of a used Studio are far less costly than a modern equivalent.
 

PeterA

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I still use a Goldmund Studio having replaced the chassis and plinth with loaded carbon fiber composites and the springs with three active pneumatic isolation and leveling modules from Newport Corporation, and having replaced the power supply with a TriPoint 24 volt unit. Cogging has never been an audible issue with the Studio. Goldmund understood that problem and used a low torque Pabst motor with a fairly massive platter weighted at its perifery to accomplish that. All of those mods and the cost of a used Studio are far less costly than a modern equivalent.

Good stuff, Jhellow. Do you have photos? If the pneumatic modules from Newport are anything like those in my Vibraplane, you are getting superb isolation.
 

morricab

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Agree Morricab, but Myles did say late 60's / early 70's.
I guess Myles neglected to mention by the mid/late 70's all those early issues had. been resolved including the tables you mention.
Harry W did mention the LO7D did have perfect speed stability in the interview after the review.

The high end Japanese tables of this period are still competitive with today's high end tables.

My Pioneer Exclusive P3 turntable is technological tour deforce that arguably has not been matched by current dd tables.

Speed stability is perfect IMO. my P10 also has perfect speed stability.

Ringing platter - certainty not.

I would love to hear my P3 compared to a Classic DD, Brinkman dd or Wave Kinetics as I am sure all of them are wonderful tables. BTW, bravo to these 3 companies in bringing back DD tables.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html


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View attachment 18196


Yeah those big Exclusive machines are nice :). I wouldn't mind to have one. I have a Yamaha GT-2000 though with external power supply and vacumm platter that isn't exactly chopped liver. I am also working on my own DIY DD machine with a very advanced (and expensive) motor and control system.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Yeah those big Exclusive machines are nice :). I wouldn't mind to have one. I have a Yamaha GT-2000 though with external power supply and vacumm platter that isn't exactly chopped liver. I am also working on my own DIY DD machine with a very advanced (and expensive) motor and control system.


Nice, not many outside of Japan have any of the accessories for the GT2000. Post PIC of this and your did did
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I am also working on my own DIY DD machine with a very advanced (and expensive) motor and control system.

What type of motor are you using? Are you building an analog or fully digital controller? Unfortunately I do not have the time or the expertise, but I feel a modern DD controller will be a challenging project.
 

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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I still use a Goldmund Studio having replaced the chassis and plinth with loaded carbon fiber composites and the springs with three active pneumatic isolation and leveling modules from Newport Corporation

Can you tell me which Newport devices you use. I own a Goldmund Studio as well. Do the devices replace the internal springs? (I also use a Vibraplane under the unit). Thanks

Marty
 

Jhellow

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Jul 12, 2011
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Can you tell me which Newport devices you use. I own a Goldmund Studio as well. Do the devices replace the internal springs? (I also use a Vibraplane under the unit). Thanks

Marty

Marty,

If you have a Vibraplane, one option is to remove the springs from the Goldmund and turn the chassis and plinth into a sand box that is rigid and level, and sits on the Vibraplane.

If you want to go Newport, its the CM 225-3 set. The only problem with the Newports is that you have to build a new chassis,because they sit taller than the spring towers, and you need to add mass to the plinth because it is too light for the Newports by itself. So I had a new chassis built from carbon fiber and a sub plinth that is lead loaded and CF wrapped. The project was described in an article I did for The Audiophile Voice many years ago.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Marty,

If you have a Vibraplane, one option is to remove the springs from the Goldmund and turn the chassis and plinth into a sand box that is rigid and level, and sits on the Vibraplane.

If you want to go Newport, its the CM 225-3 set. The only problem with the Newports is that you have to build a new chassis,because they sit taller than the spring towers, and you need to add mass to the plinth because it is too light for the Newports by itself. So I had a new chassis built from carbon fiber and a sub plinth that is lead loaded and CF wrapped. The project was described in an article I did for The Audiophile Voice many years ago.

That's interesting. The performance of my Vibraplane increased when I preloaded it with a 136 lb steel ballast plate, thus bringing the total load on top of the Vibraplane close to its 275 lb max design load.
 

Jhellow

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Jul 12, 2011
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That's interesting. The performance of my Vibraplane increased when I preloaded it with a 136 lb steel ballast plate, thus bringing the total load on top of the Vibraplane close to its 275 lb max design load.

There is a sweet spot for these suspensions that you have to satisfy for them to achieve optimal isolation.

Newport has a new isolator called the Vibe that is passive and that appears like it should fit in place of the springs. And it is sold in weight classes that should allow it to work with the existing Goldmund plinth. But it is not self leveling like the CM 225s. So you would have to play with placement to achieve perfect level, which is very important with the Goldmund arm, and I am not sure it will work. That is why I ended up with the self leveling system. The old Goldmund suspension would not account for movement of the arm carriage across the record. So it was almost always not perfectly level and that created problems with keeping the stylus in a neutral position within the record groove and affected imaging.
 

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