yes it was a poor choice of words....I apologize. What I meant was that the turntable in it's basic form has not really changed in over 11 years. It is still a beautiful piece and would love to hear one someday.
$100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?
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yes it was a poor choice of words....I apologize. What I meant was that the turntable in it's basic form has not really changed in over 11 years. It is still a beautiful piece and would love to hear one someday.
I thought this thread was in relation to Walker and AFO - how quickly others seem to drop in talking about others
maybe a new thread should be started by you guys. Peter responding to your reply above saying you are "smitten" didn't you do a review a while back saying the second from the top turntable in Triangle Arts lineup was better than the Onedof table.
Don't want to get into a discussion on this page - best you start a new thread but wonder which version the Kronos you have is, there have been many iterations
I had one in my system approx two years back now and didn't find it to be anything special, those flywheels "platters" spinning the opposite way didn't do much for me either - product doesn't have much of a local following and has been heard allot - wonder why?
One could say this about the AF1. After all in its basic form its based on the 30+ year old SX-8000
Its the implementation and end result that is all that matters.
Personally a I have appreciation and respect for both designs, they both have many years of history behind them. Someone above already wrote that there are numerous factors that come into play such as set-up of the arm and cart and I agree. In my journey I have found there is no "BEST" just different and some will outperform in specific areas but again subjective, in the end as long as you are listening to music that's all that matters.
My turntable is 53K, which seems to be an insane amount, but the profit really isn't what you might expect. My friends say I pay myself fifty cents an hour. Considering that almost all incoming money goes back into the company, that is probably true. Dave Fletcher of SOTA and Sumiko fame once told me that if I wanted to make a million dollars in audio, I should invest two million. That's probably true, as well. Still, there are markets in the world that won't consider my offering because of its price. It's to inexpensive for them. Maybe some of the manufacturers you cite are charlatans, but some may set their prices high just so they can stay in the game where those markets are concerned. Me? I suppose I'll make a bigger and better turntable to appease those markets...one of these days.
So true. I used to be amazed when a forty year-old turntable blew the doors off a current 40K one, but not anymore. I suppose the trick is in separating the hype from the real deal. Contrary to popular opinion, bling and gadgetry can co-exist with performance, but they don't define it.
Peter, since you were the first to formally review the Walker, could you describe how you remember it sounding compared to the Kronos, or is that an impossible task given the completely different settings? Perhaps you could describe each's strengths.
Also, do you not mean that the Kronos is 1/3 the cost of the Walker and AF1? 2/3 would be $66,666. Is the Kronos really that expensive?
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I do not think it would be fair for me to hijack this thread and talk about my TT which is not really addressing the OP questions. I would be happy to discuss my thoughts off site with you. If you want to talk by phone, please pm me your phone number I will be happy to call you. That should be a fun conversation!
Rolls Royce used to list their horsepower rating as "adequate", and it seemed to suffice, considering they have been around since 1925. The measurements of the 1970's seemed to have been more about marketing than substance, in my opinion. Are they viable today? If one can't hear the rumble, does its measurement matter? Einstein said, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." It's true.
Aside from that, I suspect turntables are one place where the wrong things happen to be the ones that were measured in the past. How can we measure the differences when those differences don't even have names? That reminds me of an Edison quote, "We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything." He was right, too. After reverse engineering a lot of turntables, I am convinced that most of them were built wrong, but if I can't quantify that belief with empirical data, what good is it? Catch-22.
All I can hope for is a result that resounds with others in a meaningful way.
I meant to say it's 2/3 less the price. I can't compare with any accuracy the specifics of the Walker to another table (the Walker left the system years ago) except to say that the Walker had more in your face detail while the Kronos has more soul and layered detail. My Walker was one of the first, today's Walkers are more refined. What I can say is the Kronos is superior if you require instant push button starting... the Walker takes time for the air pressures to build up.
Hello, gentlemen. It's time for the green ink. Please refrain from personal comments and stick solely to any technical merits that would be constructive to the conversation. Consider this a formal warning to all involved with this thread. Any more nonconstructive interruptions will yield a 3 day involuntary vacation from the WBF. I hope I have made myself perfectly clear. Cordial participation is a key point of being a member of this forum, we are all better than some of the examples seen on this thread.
Tom
Please note: Any and all irrelevant posts have been deleted as of 10:00 tonight.
Tom
Please note: Any and all irrelevant posts have been deleted as of 10:00 tonight.
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.03% come on Tom. Enlighten us. What does this translate to in pitch and tempo inaccuracy? This is only .005 off the most iconic DJ table of all time. I can beat match a good half a minute with a 1200, analogous to a perfect null for 30 SECONDS, 16 ROTATIONS, keeping over 3000 beats of a slow tempo song. That with a slip mat that I'm pretty sure worsens the W&F figures due to stylus drag.
Sorry man. TechDAS owner or not. In practical terms this is just trolling to me. The money spent on vibration is better spent rather than to go nuts on a figure you will never find objectionable in terms of actual usage, the example given being the most extreme use of a turntable imaginable. Spend it on what can be heard.
Sorry man. TechDAS owner or not. In practical terms this is just trolling to me. The money spent on vibration is better spent rather than to go nuts on a figure you will never find objectionable in terms of actual usage, the example given being the most extreme use of a turntable imaginable. Spend it on what can be heard.
I am sure his UHA Phase 11S RTR playing copies of mastertapes is SOTA in stereo sound reproduction.
I submit to you that once again the wrong thing is being measured. Many people can hear a jitter in the 1200. It is never measured, but it exists, and it makes the DJ table exactly that, a DJ table. The problem also manifests itself as a loss of dynamics, and that is apparent to the discerning listener in the SP10, as well. How does the 100K table sound? I don't know, but I suspect it performs on a tier several grades higher than broadcast and DJ tables of the past. At least, it should.
The issue with blanket speed measurements is that they do not take feedback into consideration. Holding an exact 33-1/3 RPM by specification doesn't prove that it is exactly that. Those minute spaces when feedback corrects do matter. Motor cogging also matters.
Turntables are deceptively simple beasts. There is more than meets the eye, a lot more.
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The issue I have with Tom and his comments is that he takes every possible opportunity to disparage vinyl playback because to him....the measurements of TT's implies that digital playback measurements are superior and that translates to the best sound. Further if you think vinyl sounds better is because you love distortion. The other issue...he has no experience with even the middle class of turntable's and uses the 1200 as representative of the best vinyl playback has to offer. No credibility hence my Ethan analogy.
Yes 1/3 the price.
I have had really tough time trying to explain the sound of this table. Its so smooth and quiet, but not boring. Tons of boppity bop and life, but not forward. Super deep bass, but not bass heavy. It just sound so right to my ears, I love it.
At 1/6 the price, I am looking forward to spending some time with the AMG next.
I don't disagree with anything you say Win. My point is simply that a solitary figure can't tell an entire story.
Tom,
Well, this is just one of the many reductionist perspectives I have read in an audio forum. The only reason I am in WBF is to learn about other experiences and share my opinions, participating in debates about our different views of the hobby. IMHO learning means I read about others experiences and style, and I weight their contributions according to my criteria. Although this forum is intrinsically a democracy, I will not valuate the posts of someone who has more than 4000 posts and participated in many high end debates, showing a great coherency of views with several other posters I come to respect, in the same way I valuate those of people who almost never have reported anything positive about high-end.
Using the old worn-out argument that nothing sounds like real music unless someone leaves the room completely ignores what is stereo sound reproduction or just suggests the author is playing with words. Anyway we could learn that for the effect of comparing digital to analog in the unknown conditions you refer your ears are as good as those of the few teenagers. As usual, all IMHO and YMMV.
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Microstrip, this may be in your humble opinion, but I agree with you 100%. Well written.
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