$100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?

jtinn · Dec 12, 2014

caesar said:
So, what do these tables do that a $30K table cannot do?

Retail price has nothing to do with it. Many manufacturers use ridiculous amounts of markup because people think that if it is more expensive, it must be better. Also, the large margins offered makes it very appealing for distributors. There are tables that I have heard that are 5k that sound better than others at the much higher prices.

I do not want to offend anyone who owns the TechDas, but between the two you mentioned, I greatly preferred the sound of the Walker. When setup properly, it is a very good sounding system.

jtinn · Dec 12, 2014

BruceD said:
The Walker seemed closed in to me--I'd liked more projection nevertheless it is fine crafted product and worthy of consideration in the quest.
BruceD

Hi BruceD,

Funny you say that because I found one of the strengths of the Walker to be how open it sounds. Generally speaking one can attribute that to the linear tracking tonearm which, if setup properly, is in alignment throughout the entire side of an Lp which a pivoting tonearm does not achieve quite as well. Of course there are other issues with linear tracking tonearms, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I don't doubt what you heard, but consider that maybe the setup was off.

BruceD · Dec 13, 2014

jtinn said:
Hi BruceD,

Funny you say that because I found one of the strengths of the Walker to be how open it sounds. Generally speaking one can attribute that to the linear tracking tonearm which, if setup properly, is in alignment throughout the entire side of an Lp which a pivoting tonearm does not achieve quite as well. Of course there are other issues with linear tracking tonearms, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I don't doubt what you heard, but consider that maybe the setup was off.

Ha Jtinn--Good to banter with ya!--this thread sorta reminds me of that Jap Show Iron Chef when the over the top presenter bellows--"WHO'S CUISINE REIGNS SUPREME!"-ha

Yes as I mentioned previously the sum total of the parts relate to the sound we hear-and possibly we seek to"blame"--unfairly one component for the unsatifaction one garners as a first impression.

Human nature being as it is--the item once heard though in different systems that fails to "impress" and is seemingly part of the sonics that do not excite-albeit aligned and setup by the designer himself

Then possibly he needs to look more closely at the ancillaries--if we are to give positive impressions

I'm sure the "Tail wagging the Dog" Syndrome is to be avoided --but who knows politics(Which components used in conjunction/etc) are every increasingly evident in the industry--how do we know he was happy with

A: the speakers
B: the Amps/Pre/etc
C: cabling Power
D; Acoustics of the room--my how this changes with a few sweaty bods cluttering the place!

Nevertheless I'm loathe to make a definite choice of the Two TT's mentioned--both superb items from master craftsman and deserving of audition without Question

Sorry Jt I called it as I heard it-- with proviso in the line above

Good listening,

BruceD

rockitman · Dec 13, 2014

jtinn said:
I do not want to offend anyone who owns the TechDas, but between the two you mentioned, I greatly preferred the sound of the Walker.

not offended...only chuckling....like you have had both side by side in the same system ? Your opinion is duly noted...

jtinn · Dec 13, 2014

Well said BruceD and I enjoyed your post!

jtinn · Dec 13, 2014

rockitman said:
not offended...only chuckling....like you have had both side by side in the same system ? Your opinion is duly noted...

Christian, it does appear you are offended and that certainly was not my intention. You certainly do not need to be snide about it.

I have heard the TechDas in numerous systems, numerous times and felt the same way about it each time. Also, each time the same tonearm (Graham) was used. I have also heard numerous iterations of the Walker, numerous times and in numerous systems. I also felt the same way about it each time I heard it.

Garth · Dec 13, 2014

analog brother · Dec 13, 2014

bergmann

FrantzM · Dec 13, 2014

jtinn said:
Retail price has nothing to do with it. Many manufacturers use ridiculous amounts of markup because people think that if it is more expensive, it must be better. Also, the large margins offered makes it very appealing for distributors. There are tables that I have heard that are 5k that sound better than others at the much higher prices.

I do not want to offend anyone who owns the TechDas, but between the two you mentioned, I greatly preferred the sound of the Walker. When setup properly, it is a very good sounding system.

I agree 100%.

And this doesn't apply to TT only: This is the case for any components.

Peter Breuninger · Dec 13, 2014

At this level it's really up to what you like... the looks of the table, the touch points, pride of ownership, that sorta thing. Sonically they are all good. Once you hit a certain design point and a table offers good low frequencies it's a matter of taste. I was the first reviewer to review the Walker, I liked it so much I bought the table.

PeterA · Dec 13, 2014

jtinn said:
Christian, it does appear you are offended and that certainly was not my intention. You certainly do not need to be snide about it.

I have heard the TechDas in numerous systems, numerous times and felt the same way about it each time. Also, each time the same tonearm (Graham) was used. I have also heard numerous iterations of the Walker, numerous times and in numerous systems. I also felt the same way about it each time I heard it.

Johathan, Thanks for joining the discussion. Being in the industry with lots of experience and having heard many of these top tier tables numerous times in different settings, could you talk a bit about how the Wave Kinetics table differs from those already mentioned? I know that it is a Direct Drive system and usually heard with Durand arms.

There is also not much mention of the Kondo, The Beat with the Schroder LT arm. I would include it and the vintage Technics SP10 MK3 in the top tier.

thedudeabides · Dec 13, 2014

rockitman said:
,

Take a chill pill. If you want the best technologically superior TT in every way...superior isolation, vacuum and air bearing implementation with voicing flexibility via platter composition choices, the AF1 is it. the Walker is an old and tired design (still in the SOTA class) with various upgrades to it ps, vacuum, ect.

Merely posing some questions. Sorry.

And you did affirm my last sentence from my previous post.

Others have agreed that the other "issues" I raised are legitimate.

Nothing wrong with having divergent opinions I hope.

Just goes to show there is no "best" regardless of price. Only personal observations.

Best.

Bruce B · Dec 13, 2014

FWIW, I've heard many of these tables over the years and I'd have to say the TechDas and Clearaudio Statement are the two best I've heard. Those are the two I'd like to hear side by side in my system.
The many times I've heard the Walker, it didn't wow me.

Joe Galbraith · Dec 13, 2014

thedudeabides said:
With all due respect, how many people have these tables? And for those that own one, what's the possibility that they have heard the other contenders in a "similar" system?

Furthermore, the owner's "pool" is extremely small, which would imply that the probability of determining any consensus is literally impossible.

And as Bruce points out, the myriad of variables would further suggest the extreme difficulty in making any legitimate comparisons.

And from a pragmatic perspective, how many folks who spent this amount of money and own such items are going to say their table is not the best.

I have owned the Walker for 8 years, buying it new and having it installed by Lloyd Walker, and have also had some of the updates done to it over time. I also have two friends who are AF1 owners. That said, I have lots of listening experiences with both tables.

It is true that these tables are "end of the road" purchases. I calculated that if I kept buying better and better tables as my system evolved over a long period of time, I would eventually spend much more than I would spend buying that "final" record playing system once.

I could easily live with either table. The each have different advantages in design with air bearing and air suspension. AF1 does provide vacuum hold down and the Walker does not. The AF1 provides for multiple arms and choice of arm (although most in the field use a Graham, and the table is voiced for a Graham). The Walker provides a dedicated linear tracking tone arm.

The same reason we have vanilla and chocolate. Both are great tables, the Walker has a proven long term track record. Most, if not all Walker tables built are still in service. Mine is 8 years old and never given me one bit of trouble requiring service. It has been set it and forget it, except when changing carts or adjusting VTA for various thicknesses of LPs. The owners pool IS small relative to mainstream tables like those from VPI , Project, etc., buy a Walker or an AF1 and you will get off the turntable Merry-Go-Round and spend your money on records instead.

Edit: Keep your eye on the Kronos - it's a great table, a LOT of table for the money.

FrantzM · Dec 13, 2014

Hi

Now for a complete different perspective on TT

How does one compare two TTs.

Same Arm?
Same cartridge?
Same Volume level?
Same Phono IC Cables
Same Phono stage settings
Same location in the room or at least locations where the distribution of room modes is at leas similar??

Else you may be not comparing the same thing. Thus my question: How does one arrive to prefer one SOTA TT over another?

Joe Galbraith · Dec 13, 2014

rockitman said:
,

Take a chill pill. If you want the best technologically superior TT in every way...superior isolation, vacuum and air bearing implementation with voicing flexibility via platter composition choices, the AF1 is it. the Walker is an old and tired design (still in the SOTA class) with various upgrades to it ps, vacuum, ect.

The AF1 is a great table. I have two friends that own them. Calling the Walker an "old and tired design" is a bit of a cheap shot. Remember the cardinal rule of selling a product: Don't tell me what the competition does wrong, tell me what your product does well.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 13, 2014

FrantzM said:
Hi

Now for a complete different perspective on TT

How does one compare two TTs.

Same Arm?
Same cartridge?
Same Volume level?
Same Phono IC Cables
Same Phono stage settings
Same location in the room or at least locations where the distribution of room modes is at leas similar??

Else you may be not comparing the same thing. Thus my question: How does one arrive to prefer one SOTA TT over another?

in 2008 I was wondering the same thing about my Rockport tt; just how good was it?

I proceeded to purchase 4 more tt's, 6 arms, and a couple of phono stages during my investigations over 3-4 years. I did have the chance over time to figure out what piece contributed what aspect of the performance. then another tt came along which I ended up preferring to the rest. and while this was going on I got involved with the testing side of tone arm development which helped me to understand that question.

I had at least three and mostly four tt's during that time.

living with and playing with all those tt's was fun and enlightening.

and really....they all sounded great and I could happily live with any of them and any of the arms.

the one question I never could answer was just how good was the Rockport tt compared to the Rockport arm since it was not practical to separate them. maybe someday someone will mount a SOTA pivoted tone arm on the Sirius III and we will get that answer.

but I agree Frantz, really knowing what is doing what takes time and an open minded investigation and getting the true truth about the worth of a tt at a show is doubtful.

JackD201 · Dec 13, 2014

FrantzM said:
Hi

Now for a complete different perspective on TT

How does one compare two TTs.

Same Arm?
Same cartridge?
Same Volume level?
Same Phono IC Cables
Same Phono stage settings
Same location in the room or at least locations where the distribution of room modes is at leas similar??

Else you may be not comparing the same thing. Thus my question: How does one arrive to prefer one SOTA TT over another?

Great points raised Frantz. The chances of ever having a totally fair direct comparison is slim to none. Set up alone can create such huge differences. In the end I'm guessing that one goes with the product that most embodies the common philosophies of the designer and the customer. I for one have been an admirer of Micro-Seikis long before TechDAS came into being. There are so many ways to skin a cat. TD simply most resembles the way I would do it if I had the resources and technical knowhow to do it myself. Air, opposing magnets, oil, ruby, ceramic, periphery rings, vacuum hold down, DC vs AC motors, drive system vs drive system, character or lack thereof, elegant or Rube Goldberg-esque, in the end the basic functions remain. Spin at the right speed and do it quietly.

Peter Breuninger · Dec 13, 2014

Joe Galbraith said:
Edit: Keep your eye on the Kronos - it's a great table, a LOT of table for the money.

I have the big Kronos under evaluation, it's been in the system for a little over a month and I am smitten by it. My music sounds "right" with it. It has everything you would want in a super table... great bass, huge and multi layered staging, outstanding inner detail, great macro dynamics and it has soul. Plus Terry and I can dance right next to it and the needle stays where it should (we have a suspended floor). Did I mention it's 2/3 the price of the Walker or AF1?

microstrip · Dec 13, 2014

FrantzM said:
Hi

Now for a complete different perspective on TT

How does one compare two TTs.

Same Arm?
Same cartridge?
Same Volume level?
Same Phono IC Cables
Same Phono stage settings
Same location in the room or at least locations where the distribution of room modes is at leas similar??

Else you may be not comparing the same thing. Thus my question: How does one arrive to prefer one SOTA TT over another?

You do not need to listen to all the variations - turntable sound signatures are very strong and characteristic and differ from the sound signatures of the other elements. You surely have to listen to them several times in different systems but it is not so difficult as we can imagine.

$100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?

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