The review side by side was done in stereophile a couple years back. He basically said they are both neutral and performed nearly identical with his taste preference going toward the Kuzma.
Schroder LT x Kuzma 4 point x Graham Elite x SME V-12
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The review side by side was done in stereophile a couple years back. He basically said they are both neutral and performed nearly identical with his taste preference going toward the Kuzma.
Peter,
While fourteen people have voted, if I look at the posts here, I understand that only two people expressed strong preferences for one tonearm, directly comparing with one or more: (i) BruceD prefers Kuzma 4 point vs. Graham Elite and SME V-12. He believes Schroder LT is equal to Kuzma 4 Point. (post #17), and (ii) Altanpsx prefers the Graham Elite vs. Kuzma 4 Point and SME V-12 (post #32).
I got several clear views/comparisons by private message. It seems that many fellow audiophiles just don't want to clearly express their views in the thread regarding what they think are the shortcomming of some tonearms, probably because they fear upsetting their friends who own those tonearms, which is understandable.
Cheers
Thanks VPN, please let us know which arm you decide to buy.
It seems people are less willing to publicly express their views about tonearms. Or, I suspect, people just have not directly compared many tonearms because it is a much more difficult task, both at a dealership or in one's own system because of the logistics involved and the difficulty of setting up a proper comparison.
This is very different from say, speakers, cables, or amplifiers, where one just inserts the component in a system and listens or travels and hears the item multiple times and then forms a general impression about its sonic character. With these other components, people seem very open about their preferences, clearly explain why they like or dislike one relative to another, and describe how those comparisons were made.
Fremer did an interesting thing directly comparing the Kuzma to the Graham Phantom. I wish more reviewers did the same, especially with difficult to audition items.
Well that just sucks but I'm curious if any of those individuals you refer to actually had the arms in their system and properly evaluated?
Without posting who actually sent you the PM's so no one knows kindly provide what they shared so others can weight in - that's what these forums are for right?
I own arms but only one of the ones mentioned "Elite" for comparisons. Would be easy for me to vote but I haven't due to not having compared to any of the others mentioned - I was looking forward to some REAL thoughts with DETAILS. I personally know numerous whom have already made up their mind without even hearing the latest Elite arm in their own system and properly evaluate.
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regarding the Kuzma Graham debate and Fremer's comparo 3 years ago it's important to note that it was the Phantom Supreme he directly compared against the Kuzma. While he felt both were very close, he had a slight preference for Kuzma. My experience with the Elite and Supreme as I own 1 elite and two Supremes, the elite bests it in frequency extension at both extremes and also tracks better, especially on the inner grooves. Had Fremer had an Elite, I am quite sure he would of preferred the Elite. The Elite has only been in production since May 2014. I suspect it wont be long until he tests that arm in the near future. The Supreme is priced at $7,400 which is on par with the Kuzma. The Elite costs $12,500.00. Not really a fair comparison with the Kuzma based on his review of the Supreme and 4Point..
I voted Phantom. I've had lots of time with all the other arms except the SLT, having set them up. They are all great arms. Kind of stating the obvious, there's a reason they are on this list after all. So why the Phantom vote? Ease of use particularly when one is like me who likes to swap out carts on a whim. Changing a wand isn't as easy as switching head shells but being able to align carts while sitting comfortably at a desk or work bench is. It's that jig!
Just a couple of weeks ago, I set up an Elite on an AF2. I was able to align the cart off site because the pivot to spindle distance is already set via a fixed board CNC drilled from a CAD template. The owner of the table also owns a Kuzma 4-point which he intended to sell. I prevailed upon him to keep it and install it as his second arm. TechDAS has an official template from Kuzma. That should give you a very good idea of what I think of the 4-Point.
* I do not represent or bundle any of these arms with our products. I bought my personal Elite, and all my other arms from local dealers.
Just a couple of weeks ago, I set up an Elite on an AF2. I was able to align the cart off site because the pivot to spindle distance is already set via a fixed board CNC drilled from a CAD template. The owner of the table also owns a Kuzma 4-point which he intended to sell. I prevailed upon him to keep it and install it as his second arm. TechDAS has an official template from Kuzma. That should give you a very good idea of what I think of the 4-Point.
* I do not represent or bundle any of these arms with our products. I bought my personal Elite, and all my other arms from local dealers.
Dev,
From the PMs, I got messages from very reliable audiophiles strongly favoring either the Schroder LT, or the Kuzma or the Graham Elite. It is unclear if they properly compared in their systems. Maybe (probably?) they have not properly compared in their own systems, but they heard in other systems and feel they have been able to compare. There is not much more than this in terms of information. It is clear that at least these three tonearms (maybe all four) are top notch and the people who own these tonearms love them and believe they have the best one. I guess I will just pick one based on their various atributes, and be happy with it.
However, it would be great if someone who already owns one of these, and has a great full-range system, organize to have other people bring some of the other three tonearms (and the selected comparison cartridge) to his house to compare in the same turntable, with the same cartridge. Since severaly people have either the Lyra Atlas or Air Tigh Supreme with these arms, they would pick one cartridge to properly compare the tonearms in the same table and system. I think that many audiophiles would be grateful to hear about the results of a properly implemented tonearm comparison.
Cheers,
Vicente
Ya that wouldn't shock me and then provide a opinion which is not credible because they didn't have it in their own system - I see allot of that happening in this hobby, it's very easy to say this and that and push those keys. Personally I like to know be it good or bad but still have to take such with a grain of salt and in the end try myself. There are some whom I have found over the years to have a similar ear which assist, not the easiest to fine though.
All of these arms are top notch and there are numerous others out there not mentioned in the mix.
Good luck with that happening and even if it did will still only be that persons opinion which would be debatable, you would need to personally know the system well and be there and hear to determine what you prefer. Do you visit many systems in your area? I have and found there isn't one that I would find to be the same - I find allot of different preferences, some like it hot - some medium and others mild and some just so friggen bland - boring and put me to sleep.
One area which is nice that Jack mentioned above about the Elite is owning extra arm wands - you can have several different cart set-ups and just swap them out. Once you have gone through the initial process of setting them up - keep a record of the preferred weight and when you swap the wand that's all you have to do.
I personally still feel this wand fitting is a weak link, any fittings - the cart sends such a small signal. Anyone care to share their thoughts on this - I did notice the actual connection appears to be superior over a Phantom II I owned a few years back.
How many joints "breaks" in the tonearm cable are there on each of these arms - say from the cart pins to rca cable plugs that attach to the phono input.
I recall someone telling me that the Phantom II had 4 - anyone know how many the Elite has? For sure it has two - wand and mini-din connector - are there more?
Hi, reason I said that is I've only compared the LT to a Tri Planar & The cabling was different (Trans Ref XL off Tri and the captive silver on the LT). The second reason I said the above was I've hear Peter's SME V-12 and Alberts. They are excellent systems. If I had a SME table, I'd use a SME V-12 vs the LT...I think system matching is a crucial element...
I am reading this thread with some fascination. I am not (yet) in the market for an arm of this calibre - I have a humble Morch DP6. That said has the person that started the thread said:
1. to which turntable he is going to fit the arm
2. what cartridge does he intend to use
3. what tonearm cable
Also what are your music preferences? Is it bass? treble? imaging? tonal colour? neutrality? timing?
There are a lot of variables. At this level surely each arm delivers all of these but in a different way, or with different emphasis. I guess it is like fine dining - there's no absolute best.
Can I just add that I take Fremer with a slight grain of salt. I always recall him first saying the Whest 2.0 phono stage was comparable to a Boulder, and better than a Manley Steelhead (his stage at the time) a quick chat with Evana Manley and it was worse/comparable to a Graham Slee. I was a big fan of Roy Gregory reviews until he went all 'pro Audiofreak'. All I am saying is that be very careful of what reviewers have to say.
1. to which turntable he is going to fit the arm
2. what cartridge
3. what tonearm cable
Also what are your music preferences? Is it bass? treble? imaging? tonal colour? neutrality? timing?
There are a lot of variables. At this level surely each arm delivers all of these but in a different way, or with different emphasis. I guess it is like fine dining - there's no absolute best.
Can I just add that I take Fremer with a slight grain of salt. I always recall him first saying the Whest 2.0 phono stage was comparable to a Boulder, and better than a Manley Steelhead (his stage at the time) a quick chat with Evana Manley and it was worse/comparable to a Graham Slee. I was a big fan of Roy Gregory reviews until he went all 'pro Audiofreak'. All I am saying is that be very careful of what reviewers have to say.
Hello Loheswaran,
Welcome to posting at WBF, I see this is your first post.
Here you go:
Turntable: Technics SP10 mk3 modded by Steve Dobbins
Phono preamp: Tom Evans Mastergroove mk2
Phono cable: it will depend on the tonearm. The Schroder has a dedicated cable that you can have in copper or silver.
Cartridge: I have another thread about this. Probably Air Tight PC1 Supreme or Lyra Atlas
My system:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1206661296&view
I listen mostly to rock, pop, jazz, techno, and classical.
Everything is important for me. My currently digital only system is already quite realistic and full-range. I want an analog front end that is as realistic as possible, including full range, imaging, detail, dynamic, air, body, and so on.
It seems that these arms are really top notch. I will hopefully decide on the tonearm + cartridge combination soon.
Cheers
Boy - do I wish I had ur conundrum - like choosing between Lionel Messi and Christiano Ronaldo...
I preface what I am to say based on having never heard the arms, but I like the idea of the Shroder LT due to the linear tracking without having to contend with an air-bearing and pump, and given that you are clearly a person with a very neutral system (Direct drive and Mastergroove) minimisation of distortion sounds like the ticket.
Can I just add that whilst it is significantly cheaper, you may want to buy a Funk Firm Fx3. I heard either that or the FXR at the high-end show on a Funk Firm Sapphire and was very impressed - I would personally not rule out something on the grounds that it is cheaper alone - by way of analogy the Nissan Skyline GTR is considered to be one of the fastest car point to point in the world, and it would take the likes of the new super-duper Porsche 918 and McLaren to beat it around a track.
I preface what I am to say based on having never heard the arms, but I like the idea of the Shroder LT due to the linear tracking without having to contend with an air-bearing and pump, and given that you are clearly a person with a very neutral system (Direct drive and Mastergroove) minimisation of distortion sounds like the ticket.
Can I just add that whilst it is significantly cheaper, you may want to buy a Funk Firm Fx3. I heard either that or the FXR at the high-end show on a Funk Firm Sapphire and was very impressed - I would personally not rule out something on the grounds that it is cheaper alone - by way of analogy the Nissan Skyline GTR is considered to be one of the fastest car point to point in the world, and it would take the likes of the new super-duper Porsche 918 and McLaren to beat it around a track.
Dear Rockitman, I hope you are well. So I read you get Supreme 12 and Elite 10 on your LP table. Me I get Supreme 10 and wish to upgrade to the Elite.
Few questions please.
a/ Does the Elite is really better than the Supreme ? If yes in what parameters ?
b/ Are you using the original Graham damp fluid or the STP advised by Arthur Salvatore ? If yes how many ml are you using ?
c/ You are using 12" on the Supreme and 10" on the ELite ? Why ? Do you think the lenght will influence the sound quality ?
Many thanks for your help,
Merry Christmas,
JIM around Paris, Versailles in France...
Hi Jim,
here goes:
A) Yes it does sound better. The frequency extension at the extremes is better, the mids and highs are more refined. You can feel the difference between the arms when you return the arm to rest after playing a side. There is simply less resistance with the Elite arm. It really feels like it is floating on air. The sound improvement is due to a more precision bearing, thicker arm tube and better internal wiring.
B) I have only used Graham damping fluid. The fluid now used by the Elite is thinner/less viscous compared to the fluid used on the Supreme originally. Bob Graham now supplies the newer fluid with the Supreme also. I don't have a measurement of how much, but I gradually fill the bearing chamber checking how far up the bearing cap shank the fluid goes. I prefer to fill it until the fluid reaches the square portion of the bearing shank.
C) with my TechDas AF1 TT I use the Elite in the front primary spot in 10". That is the maximum size you can use there. For the rear slot, only a 12" can be used. I had my TT delivered 6 mos before I could get an Elite, so I opted for the 12" Supreme at the time so I could use the TT. Length can affect sound quality in a good way as the tracking error is less with longer arms. AS happy as I am with the Supreme in the rear slot and even though its 2" longer than the Elite, the Elite still sounds better. The Supreme is good enough for me to keep it though. Hope this helps.
Merry Christmas Jim.
VPN, since you have a Dobbins table, I'd really suggest the Schroder LT. Steve is a great set up guy, the arm is pretty damn good and will be a super match with the AT Supreme or Lyra Atlas. I can't imagine you being disappointed. I know the other arms your considering are awesome as well...
I agree with jfrech. Steve knows these combinations. I think you should also contact Albert Porter. He has a Technics SP10 Mk3, Airtight Supreme, Lyra Atlas and two SME V-12 arms. He has tried many arms with this table and these cartridges. Between Albert and Steve, you should get some pretty good advice.
John, thank you. I agree with you that I can not go wrong with the Schroder LT + Lyra Atlas combination. Thanks, and happy Christmas!
Peter, I have talked with Albert, he is a great guy. I will contact Steve and get done with this soon. Yesterday I bought a Loricraft PRC4. Happy about it. Have a good Christmas!
Hello,
Thank you everyone for your input, both here and by PM! Greatly appreciated!
I decided to purchase a Schroder LT and just received it today. It seems like all four tonearms that I listed (besides some that I did not list) are top notch, but I liked the concept of the Schroder LT and the great recommendations.
Regarding the cartridge, I decided to go with the Lyra Atlas. The main reason is that it is known to work well with the Schroder LT. I expect to buy a Lyra Atlas during March or April.
Cheers,
VPN
Thank you everyone for your input, both here and by PM! Greatly appreciated!
I decided to purchase a Schroder LT and just received it today. It seems like all four tonearms that I listed (besides some that I did not list) are top notch, but I liked the concept of the Schroder LT and the great recommendations.
Regarding the cartridge, I decided to go with the Lyra Atlas. The main reason is that it is known to work well with the Schroder LT. I expect to buy a Lyra Atlas during March or April.
Cheers,
VPN
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